Formal Bow

Formal Bow

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Formal Bow - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:26:38 AM

MrRobato

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Formal Bow

Printed From: Kenpo Thoughts
Forum Name: General Talk
Forum Discription: General discussions on various topics on Martial Arts and Kenpo/Kempo

Topic: Formal Bow

Posted By: Samantha
Subject: Formal Bow
Date Posted: 26 May 2005 at 10:17pm

Just learned the formal bow tonight, dunno why they don't teach it from the get-go...
Just wondering if you knew where it came from, I recieved a humourous explaination that I can't honestly say I believe... so I'm asking for second opinons... if anything similar is said I shall have to believe Dan's word... but I have a feeling he might be pulling my leg...

so, anyone know the origins of the movements?

(This is my description of the bow, filled with lengthy descriptions where I dont know the correct terminology, because I was talking about it with one of my friends (MJ_lover) and he said his version of the full bow was different.)
Standing in a neutral stance with your feet together, step with your right foot forward and have your toes facing right. Your back (left) foot should be half off the ground. As you face the right, you should have the regular weapon/shield hand formation. Take your left foot and bring it in front of your right foot into a cat stance. Bring your weapon/shield in front of you, letting your left hand go straight instead of curling around your fist. Turn your hands towards your nose, opening your fist as you do so. Circle them around until your fingers are pointing straight in front of you. Stepping backwards with your left foot, bring your hands down, then back up as you swoop towards your chest until your hands are palm out in front of you. Slide your right foot back so your feet are next to each other while simultaneously bringing your hands into fists at your sides.

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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)

Replies:

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 27 May 2005 at 12:39am

There was a diagram I saw of the Kenpo Salute somewhere. But, I can't seem to remember where...sigh. If I run into it, I'll post it.

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 27 May 2005 at 12:48am

Okay, I found one.

http://www.nackordkarate.com/Salutation.htm - http://www.nackordkarate.com/Salutation.htm

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 27 May 2005 at 2:55am

yeah, see, thats not what we do. similar, but no. MJ sent me a link that had the same bow with different pics.

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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)

Posted By: samoan
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 3:01pm

Sam, sounds like you starting to learn Short 3. Good luck with that, pretty neat kata.

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I come to you with empty hands...

Posted By: taoist spider
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 4:57pm

I can only relate how it was taught to me.
As a low level Black Belt Instructor I teach this movement to every student in the first weeks of their training, as it is a requirement to get their White Belt.

Formal Bow / Defense to a 2 hand Lapel Grab.
Start / Stand at attention / Hands and feet together, Hands folded together in front.

Stomp on the attackers instep with the RF / Turned to the Right @ 90 degrees. At the same time the hands come up and with the right fore arm push the attacker hands from your lapel. The RH comes across the attackers face in a hammer fist and is pulled back at shoulder height to strike behind you and as this happens the Left Elbow strikes the face of the attacker. Note so far the RH is in a Kenpo fist (Law of the fist) and the LH is still flat (Book of Scholars) and pushes the RH all the way threw this movement. Think about it! 1 hand will not be enough to break a 2-hand grab.
The LF steps forward as the Hands push forward / Punch into the hart. Both the hands and the Left Knee are strikes. Knee to the Groin and hands to the Hart. You will end up in a "Cat" stance.
The LF steps back to a Kenpo stance and the Hands open into palms and push down ward in a semi-circle to block the attacker knee. The hands continue turning until the backs of the wrists are facing each other. Block the Knee and then the hands turn into a trap for the kick. Keep your head up!
The RF steps back and the hands pull back into Elbow strikes at an attention stance. This will pull the attacker off balance so that he should end up in the split position on the ground in front of you.

Every thing means something.

Taoist Spider

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look around inside, you just might like your-self

Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 8:58pm

quote:

samoan]Sam, sounds like you starting to learn Short 3. Good luck with that, pretty neat kata.

Thanks. You're the 3rd person to say that, about short 3. I don't know for sure because I learned 2 techniques before that (turning the flame and ...ummmm.... err..... something asp.... striking asp? I'll go check... yeah, striking asp. (what's an asp?) Anyway, my point was I learned it at the end of my lesson and we didn't have time to go further so I'm not sure where it was leading. You're probably right though

quote:

taoist spider]
I teach this movement to every student in the first weeks of their training, as it is a requirement to get their White Belt.

To GET their white belt? You have white belt as an earned belt? I was under the impression that everyone begins as a white belt, and the first earned belt is orange (or in the case of every other kenpo studio in the universe, yellow). What are the requirements for white belt?

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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)

Posted By: taoist spider
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 9:30pm

I believe it is part of his general philosophy to make every one earn everything. In reality you don’t need to learn much, 3 basic stances, how to address every one you meet and some basic breathing stuff and of course the "Creed and Salutation Salute" and yes I have seen people fail this test!
For us it is:
White
Purple – White
Purple
Purple – Blue
Blue
Green – Blue
Green
Green – Brown
Brown
3rd Brown / 3 Black Strips
2nd / 2 Black Strips
1st Brown / 1 Black Strip
Brown – Black / Unless you really put out you could be here a long time!
Black / On Probation for the first year.
And you need to start helping to teach the nubies and white belts in the kid’s class at 3rd Brown.
If you decide not to teach you will not advance. Learning to transmit what you have learned is part of the teaching. This also let’s all of the other Black Belts watch you for a long period of time to check out your character.
Taoist Spider

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look around inside, you just might like your-self

Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 1:11pm

I'm assuming that the dashes indicate stripe colors.
I think I like your way better than ours. There are a few people at my studio whose ranks would indicate more knowledge than they seem to actually posess.

My best friend for example, is pretesting for 1st brown on wednesday - she finally went to a sparring class on saturday, and she and I sparred - I'm only a purple belt but I think she scored on me only once all day. That certainly isnt the norm though, thank goodness.

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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)

Posted By: taoist spider
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 6:33pm

And so it seems there is more in common between our schools than you might think at first glance.
If she waited until 1st brown to start sparing she may well have issues with violence as it is performed on her. In do time she will relax and become a very good sparing partner and I would be willing to bet that someone took her aside and told her in effect that she has hit the "glass ceiling". (No sparing = No advancement)
In the mean time do not underestimate her abilities. She has several years of "Knowledge" that you do not and when things start to click for her she will advance rapidly in the sparing pecking order.
Be nice to her now you may need her kindness later.
Taoist Spider

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look around inside, you just might like your-self

Posted By: samoan
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 2:11am

I also test my students for their white belts. They don't have to learn much, but I like to give them that sense of accomplishment right off the bat. I also make them test for their black gis. This comes when I see fit that Kenpo and the martial way is starting to click. The test for the black gi is pretty informal. Not so much about technique and form, but more about grit, determination and awareness. Basically, I just want to know if they can defend themselves against basic attacks and have the external focus to actually do it.

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I come to you with empty hands...

Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 10:43am

Basically, I just want to know if they can defend themselves against basic attacks and have the external focus to actually do it.

that would SO be useful. Thats one of the things I'm paranoid about - I know this stuff in theory... how would it hold up if someone actually grabbed me from behind? I wish they would do that at k-wood.

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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)

Posted By: basicblockingset
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 11:55am

quote:

taoist spider]
Black / On Probation for the first year.

What do you mean by probation?

Posted By: Kenpo-Father
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 1:14pm

The Salutation is clearly outlined in Infinite Insights into Kenpo (Vol. 1, chap. 9). In addition, the Formal Salutation at the begining and end of every American Kenpo Form is outlined in Infinite Insights into Kenpo (Vol. 5, chap. 3).
This is important, even if it's not done at your school. I'm sure you will meet other Senior ranking Kenpoists as guest instructors, at seminars, on the street, etc... You should show them respect by performing a salutation which is as much a part of American Kenpo as anything else in the system.
We should all humble ourselves and show respect to our instructors with the Salutation as well as the short version to our fellow students.

But that's just me

I'm one of the few to do it in my school and I'm the only one to wear my belt to the left side.

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This is American Kenpo, if you have a question..... The answer is usually out on the mat

Posted By: taoist spider
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 9:25pm

Just exactly that. I recived my Black Belt on the 11 of December and for the frist year you are on probation. You are expected to show up to class and help with the teaching of the color belts. You are expected to set an example and if you dont Ralph Castro him-self will take the belt from you.

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look around inside, you just might like your-self

Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 2:17pm

quote:

Samantha] Just learned the formal bow tonight, dunno why they don't teach it from the get-go...
Just wondering if you knew where it came from, I recieved a humourous explaination that I can't honestly say I believe... so I'm asking for second opinons... if anything similar is said I shall have to believe Dan's word... but I have a feeling he might be pulling my leg...

so, anyone know the origins of the movements?

(This is my description of the bow, filled with lengthy descriptions where I dont know the correct terminology, because I was talking about it with one of my friends (MJ_lover) and he said his version of the full bow was different.)
Standing in a neutral stance with your feet together, step with your right foot forward and have your toes facing right. Your back (left) foot should be half off the ground. As you face the right, you should have the regular weapon/shield hand formation. Take your left foot and bring it in front of your right foot into a cat stance. Bring your weapon/shield in front of you, letting your left hand go straight instead of curling around your fist. Turn your hands towards your nose, opening your fist as you do so. Circle them around until your fingers are pointing straight in front of you. Stepping backwards with your left foot, bring your hands down, then back up as you swoop towards your chest until your hands are palm out in front of you. Slide your right foot back so your feet are next to each other while simultaneously bringing your hands into fists at your sides.

This salute has been incorporated into Kenpo, but originally comes from the Southern Chinese martial arts. It is common to several style, including Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut. I see the Choy Lay Fut people at the tournaments here in the San Francisco area use this salute frequently at the tournaments.
I believe Ed Parker added some other elements to the salute that had some symbolism for him, but it is commonly seen in one variation or another in these Chinese systems.
According to Al Tracy's website, his brother Will (or perhaps it was Jim?) learned the Tiger-Crane (Fu-Hok) set from Hung Gar and brought it into the kenpo system back in the 50s or 60s. Apparently Ed Parker asked him to do this, so that some Chinese forms could be brought into the system. I don't know who he learned the set from, but apparently it was in San Francisco's Chinatown. Like many of the other Hung Gar sets, this one uses the formal salute to begin the form. I suspect this is where the salute also was borrowed on a wider scale and became part of the Kenpo system. It is also used to begin the Kenpo forms starting around Long Three in my school, but really it could be used to begin any of the forms.
The Tiger-Crane form is still a part of the Tracy's system, but I am not sure if it is still part of Parker's American Kenpo. the Form was created by the famous Hung Gar master Wong Fei-Hung, who lived about 4-5 generations ago. He has become something of a folk hero in China, and many many movies have been made about him. Jackie Chan plays Wong Fei-Hung in Drunken Master II, and I believe Jet Li also plays Wong Fei-Hung in the Once Upon A Time in China series. It is a beautiful and powerful form when done well, but unfortunately, I think not many people do it well, and many people have altered the set, so it exists in many different versions.
As Taoist Spider (aka Tiger Runs Downhill) correctly points out, the movements of the salute can be interpreted as self-defense techniques. This is a concept that is very common in the Chinese arts. Often, the only thing taught in the Chinese arts are forms, and it is the responsibility of the student to dissect every movement to understand it's meaning, including the opening salutation. The formalized teaching of Self Defense techniques that is typical of many of the Kenpo systems often does not exist in the Chinese arts. The same movement from one of the forms can often be interpreted in many different ways, and the students then practice application based on how they have interpreted the movement. Sometimes the Sifu will give guidance on the interpretation, but often this guidance is minimal.
Hope this helps.
Michael

Posted By: taoist spider
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 3:35am

Flying Crane at some point I would like to by you lunch and talk about the arts and what they mean to each of us.
Perhaps Kataro on Gary @ 22nd or I know of this great cheese steak place out in the Mission? Thay also do Tofu if you lean that way.

Tiger Runs Down Hill

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look around inside, you just might like your-self

Posted By: newborn
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 11:58am

"Thats one of the things I'm paranoid about - I know this stuff in theory"
Samantha,
I am new to the martial arts, but I do know that if you are paranoid than you have lost the battle. If you are paranoid than you must train more. If the time come that you ever have to defend youself (and I pray it never does) you must know the out come, you must know that you will defeat your attacker. You must train your mind as well as your body, this is the key.
My Senei gave me a book that has been very helpful in developing my mind and I would like to share it with you and all who are here.
It was written by Joe Hyams who was one of the Grand Master Ed Parker first students and was also friends and studied JEET-KUNE-DO with Bruce Lee along with eight other martial arts disciplines. The book is "Zen in The Martial Arts" and you can order it though any book store for around $8.00.
In this book Joe tell of very valuable information that he learned in his many years of martial arts training.
This book is not only interesting reading, but has givin me the tools to apply in the martial arts and in everyday life as well.
Sorry for getting off the topic, but I hope this helps
newborn

Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:07pm

"Just wondering if you knew where it came from, I recieved a humourous explaination that I can't honestly say I believe... so I'm asking for second opinons... if anything similar is said I shall have to believe Dan's word... but I have a feeling he might be pulling my leg..."

Samantha, I am curious as to what story you were told regarding this?
michael

Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:33pm

quote:

Samantha] Basically, I just want to know if they can defend themselves against basic attacks and have the external focus to actually do it.

that would SO be useful. Thats one of the things I'm paranoid about - I know this stuff in theory... how would it hold up if someone actually grabbed me from behind? I wish they would do that at k-wood.

I think it is natural, and a good idea, to question your ability to use the material that you are being taught. Not everything is going to work for you, and the things that do work for you may not work in the way you thought they would. They may also work in ways you didn't expect.
The problem with self-defense techniques is that they teach a defense against an "ideal" attack. In the real world, we never get so lucky as to have an ideal attack. And in the dojo, there has to be some amount of cooperation between attacker and defender, in order to train and develop our skills. This also will not happen in the real world.
People often ask me, "what would you do if I attacked you with a [insert attack of your choice]?" and my answer is alway the same: "I have no idea." Until the attack actually comes, there is no way to know for sure how you will react. I can talk about theory all day, and give a grocery list of kenpo techniques designed to deal with such an attack, but the simple truth is that I have no idea what I would do, until I have to do it. There are too many variables that can come into the picture, to be able to predict the course of events. Hopefully my training has prepared me for this, but nothing in life is guaranteed.
So we do drills and training that is designed to explore the unexpected, the "what-if?" stage, considering factors that could alter the situation from the ideal. This training is meant to develop your ability to adapt to a changing situation, and is very important and useful. Unfortunately, however, this is still something of an "ideal" mode of training. A real attack is just that: a real attack. It is not something that can be truly re-created in the dojo, unless everyone involved is prepared for someone, either attacker or defender, to be seriously hurt in the outcome. Not a very practical way to train.
Think of your techniques as tools in your toolbox. Not every tool is useful for every job. Some tools may not be perfect for the job at hand, but they may work well enough. Some tools may have many more capabilities than the job requires, so you only use the tool as much as is necessary to get the job done. Some tools you may alway struggle with using, and may ultimately prove not useful to you.
Your techniques give you options to use. Eventually, as you progress in the kenpo system, you will find that your toolbox may have more tools than you can ever use. But remember that each one probably has at least something to offer that is worthwhile. Look beyond the superficial details of the technique, and try to recognize the important part, the "meat" of the technique. Maybe it is a type of evasion, or footwork, or blocking, or a hand-strike combination that you find useful. How you follow-up the technique is limited only by your experience and knowledge, but the meat of the techniquie is what is worth training because that sets up everything else to work.
Meantime, try to train your application as realistically as possible so that you gain confidence, but remember that a real altercation on the street will actually be very different. As you train, decide which tools feel good in your hands. Which tools do you think you can actually use for real, not just in a controlled training situation.
And hit the heavy bag. this is very different from punching and kicking the air. You need to learn how to land a kick or punch solidly, without hurting yourself, and this only happens by training on the bag.
And don't be afraid to run like hell, if you need to. That can be the most useful tool in your toolbox. I've done it on several occasions, and it certainly doesn't hurt my pride. When the situation is getting really ugly, expecially when you are facing more than one opponent, it is time to look for the nearest exit and get the hell out of there. While your training does teach you to defend yourself, it should also give you a realistic sense of what your limits are, and what you cannot handle. On the street, if you are being attacked, sticking around to win the fight is not the point. The point is getting away with as little injury to yourself as possible. Sometimes the best thing i've done is to show the 18 year-old punks in the neighborhood that this guy wearing the business suit can still outrun them on any day of the week. in hindsight, it's even a little bit funny.
Keep training, and keep your mind open. Ask questions, and question the answers. Trust your gut and your instinct, because nobody knows you like you do.
All the best,
Michael