McDojo’s ?
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McDojo’s ? - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:13:06 AM
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MrRobato
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McDojo’s ?
Printed From: Kenpo Thoughts
Forum Name: General Talk
Forum Discription: General discussions on various topics on Martial Arts and Kenpo/Kempo
Topic: McDojo’s ?
Posted By: KJ88
Subject: McDojo’s ?
Date Posted: 09 January 2005 at 4:20am
I recentally was talking to an instructor who has returned from a training visit to the states and he commented on the mcdojo phenomenon. We had a lengthy discussion on this topic. It is my understanding that some have water down systems to provide what certain members of the public want. They are apparently thriving? Does this mean that not many people want to learn the life behind the arts or are we driven by our constant strive for instant results.
Maybe this might give more mainstream people the insight to find out what real martial arts is all about?
I have found that fewer people can tolerate the so called boring training rituals of old. Which amazes me because I never found them boring.
How are the mcdojos going?
who started them? I realise that this is just a nickname but I mean does anyone know who came up with this concept?
Replies:
Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 09 January 2005 at 3:49pm
hm. I live in the states and have no idea what a mcdojo is.
are you referring to the places that promote you to keep you interested and to take your money while teaching you little or no real karate skills?
Posted By: KJ88
Date Posted: 09 January 2005 at 10:26pm
I think it is a name thrown around about some schools that teach maybe a watered down version?
I dont know I saw it mention in another forum as well.
Posted By: mj_lover
Date Posted: 10 January 2005 at 10:16pm
quote:
Samantha]are you referring to the places that promote you to keep you interested and to take your money while teaching you little or no real karate skills?
me thinks you pretty much got it there
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"So many joints, so little time!"
Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 10 January 2005 at 11:28pm
There was a time when martial arts schools were far few. Only the hard core joined these schools. Some of the early traditional karate schools used to whack you really hard with a stick or boken if you did not bend your leg enough in a stance. Many schools sparred with no pads and made quite a bit of contact including the face.
Now there is a school every few blocks in some parts of the states. Let's face it, there are not that many hard core people out there that are willing to go home with a black eye or broken nose every night. As more schools started springing up, competition became stiff. So making money becomes more important than teaching. It's become a huge industry that can actually bring in a good dollar. So now, here come those that may not have good business ethics.
Anyways, just some rambling on my part. Really there are ways to run a martial arts school, make money and cater to many interests without losing the integrity of your system. Then there are those that really don't care as long as they make a buck.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 11 January 2005 at 11:35am
A good reading on if you are attending a Mcdojo would be...could a black belt in your system actually defend himself on the street? Or are thay just giving you enough info to make you think you could? I know there are "sport" schools that concentrate on competition and that's great if that is what you want to do. I just resent some of these places saying they offer self defence...grr...grr
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Success is the best revenge.
Posted By: mj_lover
Date Posted: 11 January 2005 at 11:56am
good analogy, how do you know IF they CAN defend themself on the street? some of us have been privaliged to have previous ma experiance, and look critically at things, like the way things are run, how the techs work, etc, but alot of people don't have that luxury, and they can't see what will, or will not work. I would watch for blatant self promotion, discrditing other systems, and many high belts in many systems.
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"So many joints, so little time!"
Posted By: One Warrior
Date Posted: 15 February 2005 at 9:54pm
I know this thread is over a month old but I wanted to add something here. McDojos are usually what we also call 'belt factories'. That is, they churn out the belts like candy. They are frequently oriented towards children due to the lucrative market. They teach the curriculum but end up awarding belts at regular, frequent intervals whether the student is ready or not. These places are clearly in it for the money. I know there are many good schools out there but it seems the McDojos are the ones we find the easiest. Unfortunately, these types of schools are on the rise. We have to be dilligent as prospective students or parents of students in order to steer clear from these traps. I know it costs money to operate a school. Some areas of the country are pretty darn expensive to live and the costs of running a school are scary. But there has to be a happy medium in this industry where we can offer good training at reasonable prices. The 'more the merrier' method of enlisting students may be lucrative in the short term but having a leaner, meaner, quality school will do alot more to ensure continued growth of the arts. I could go on and on about this subject. It is my pet peeve. I intend to open a school sometime and show that it can be done. Anywho... there, I've said my piece. Any comments? Kenpo Rocks!
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~ One Warrior ~
Don't block with your face!
Posted By: timh
Date Posted: 16 February 2005 at 7:55am
'McDojos' or 'Belt Factories' are a growing phenomenon. There is a widespread demand for marital art instruction as many people are interested in learning self defense (for various reasons) or just trying to get in better shape. From a pure business perspective, it makes good business sense to appeal to as wide of a market as possible. As a result, what some instructors teach is varied ('watered down') in order to cater to the masses and optimize revenue. I have done some research into opening a martial art school and the costs can be significant, the highest of which is leasing a storefront in a highly visible location ($1.21 - 2.12/sq ft per month). If one dedicates themselves full time to such an endeavor, then the revenue generated can be their sole source of income. In addition, health insurance is outrageous to purchase on your own. Therefore, in defense of those instructors that are trying to provide for themselves and their family, the pressures to generate a significant gross margin can be daunting.
However, I am in agreement with all of you regarding the injustice done when a student gains a false sense of confidence as a result of thinking what they have learned will be street effective. I have experienced many individuals who referred to themselves as blackbelts in whatever discipline they were or had trained in that had an awakening when they realized how ineffective their techniques were when challenged more realistically.
Not everybody that walks into a martial art school is willing to train in a manner that many dedicated martial artists do. However, I do believe that instructors teaching self defense (not competition based techniques) have an ethical and moral obligation to teach practicle techniques. Unfortunately, many instructors were never taught street effective techniques.
My recommendation to anybody contemplating joining a martial art school is to watch the more advanced students (i.e brown belt and above) and watch how they train and how they defend themselves. Always ask yourself, do you think what you are being shown will realistically work on the street (if your intent is to learn self-defense).
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Be Aware and Stay Safe!
Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 16 February 2005 at 10:54am
Mc Dojo's are becoming more numerious and also more desperete.
It comes down to competion for students, incompetent teachers
Locally 1 dojo guarentees a Black Belt in 14 months, guarentees. Hosted a few of thier Yudansha (term used very loosely). No stances, can't punch thier way out of a paper bag, Could'nt execute a effective Block to save thier skin, and kicking once the hallmark of TKD-plainly sucked! JointLocks, throws sweeps at a Blacl belt level? Did'nt know them yet. Sparring? My Colored Belts Still Talk and laugh about the night. BTW this was an adult
They pay through the nose, don't get anything in return. Guess what when they get thier face punched in -you get told martial arts does'nt work! What do you expect in a year!
Now the kids market is swerving younger(seems we are'nt considered good enough for the 10 year old crowd). So now we have preschool and toddler Kidrate!! Teenagers now think all martial arts are a joke (they don't know the diff between TKD and kenpo).
In short McDojos are really running the business into the gutter. After all how lonbg can we survive when our sysblem of excelentness (The black belt) is a joke
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Osu!
Posted By: samoan
Date Posted: 16 February 2005 at 1:45pm
"McDojo's/Belt Factories" I like those terms...we normally just call them TKD schools! Just kidding, I actually do know of several TKD stylists that are competent. It's a shame that these TKD schools get a bad rep, the style in Korea is nothing like what you normally see here in the States.
Speaking of which, I have heard this from a few people about TKD schools here in the US and how it got watered down, so forgive me if I am incorrect, I'm just the messnger here. Apparently some time ago when the martial arts boom of the late 60s/70s several TKD stylists came to the US claiming to be masters when in actuality they were not even black belts. They were merely trying to earn a fast buck because the American public would be none the wiser about their background. I've been told that they carried the mentality that Americans only wanted a "sweat and a smile". The sweat came from kicking in a line 1000+ times, and the smile came from rank promotions every 4-8 weeks.
Another version I have heard, which sounds more plausible, is that the old guard would teach Americans to earn a living, but would not teach the finer parts of their craft. Meaning they'll teach you how to do all the techniques, but not really go into how to make it work.
Anyone else hear of these theories?
Kenpo rocks....and rolls...all day long!
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I come to you with empty hands...
Posted By: One Warrior
Date Posted: 16 February 2005 at 2:05pm
I believe TKD gets a bad rap because of it's liquidation through sport competition. This reputation is valid. But this is also true in alot of arts. Its just that TKD is much more prevalent in urban and suburban areas for some reason. There must be at least 40 TKD schools here in the Dallas, TX area. I live within walking distance of at least 5! We are all aware of the vast differences between sport martial arts and traditional or streetwise training halls. Heck, I was watching a sparring session in which one person had a background in TKD that was heavily sport oriented. She never raised her hands above her waist throughout the fight! A Kenpoist (or any competant martial artist) would have a field day with that type of enemy. I am not sure as to why TKD is so widespread, popular and watered down from it's roots. I see Kenpo going through alot of changes but so far not to exclusion of street effectiveness. I'd rather have only a few good Kenpo schools than a thousand crappy ones on every corner. I will not disrespect anyone's choice of art but I hope before anyone settles on one, they take a long hard look at it's philosophy and effectiveness in real life.
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~ One Warrior ~
Don't block with your face!
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RE: McDojo’s ? - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:13:38 AM
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MrRobato
Posts: 30
Joined: Mar. 8th, 2007,
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Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 16 February 2005 at 2:44pm
Actually the rumor is that Korea started a rise in the # of black belts, giving them out fast and quick. Why/// to flood the american market!!
Todd
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Osu!
Posted By: timh
Date Posted: 17 February 2005 at 9:52am
I am not a historian but the information that I have been told regarding TKD schools appears logical. Korean based TKD practitioners came to the states for the primary goal of making money (at least the majority). They tailored their system to appeal to the general American public. The public was fascinated with martial art movies starring Bruce Lee and wanted to learn how to kick and punch. Kicks were much more impressive looking to the untrained eye. Therefore, TKD schools prospered as they willingly catered to an eager public. From a purely business perspective, their strategy was effective. If you view your business as service oriented, then it makes sense to tailor it to appeal to the largest market possible and satisfy your clients needs and desires. What is the underlying desire of the majority of students? Unfortunately in a society desiring immediate gratification, the answer for most prospective students is to attain rank (and therefore the implied power, ego, self confidence that many associate with it) as fast as possible.
I too have several TKD schools in my immediate neighborhood, and most of them are located in very nice locations ('curb' appeal in high traffic area) and in nice facilities (large, clean, well equipped) with good marketing strategies. My belief regarding TKD schools is that they are ran as businesses with the primary purpose of maximizing revenue (which is true for all for-profit businesses). In order to accomplish this goal, most TKD instructors have specific business plans that outlines how to cater to what their target customer base wants. Is this necessarily bad? As a dedicated martial artist, I believe it is unfair to the uniformed student because they can dedicate a lot of money and time to constructing a false sense of confidence. However, in their defense, from a business perspective with the purpose of generating revenue, they are accomplishing their ultimate goal. TKD (Americanized TKD) has been effectively marketed to the general public as an effective method in which to gain self confidence, flexibility, endurance, self-discipline, etc.... Ask any 10 people off the street to name types of martial arts and I would guess the majority will only be able to answer with TKD (or it will at least be the first they list).
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Be Aware and Stay Safe!
Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 17 February 2005 at 10:49am
Again thier marketing staragey is flooding the scene with black belts who don't satnd a fighting chance...literally. How do you market the balck belt when its coming to satnd for crap??
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Osu!
Posted By: taoist spider
Date Posted: 17 February 2005 at 7:13pm
I know a man; to me he is known as "Mr. Moon." He owns a coffee shop in Daly City CA. He was an officer in the South Korean Army. I believe that he is aprox. 60 years old and chiseled like a 24 year old weight lifter. I have had the pleasure of comparing style and fighting philosophy and some very limited one step stuff from time to time.
Not one bit of what he does can be used in "sport". He can explain how to tare apart a man just as well as any and has been kind enough to give some small amount of pain to prove to me that he can do it.
He has told me that what is taught in his home land is very different than the sport stuff that is taught here, but he is quick to add that if you look hard enough you can find Dojos (I think they refer to them a by a different name?) that teach the old ways.
As far a "McDojo" goes if after a year the student has not put enough effort into it by researching what they are doing, and spending enough time in practice to see if it really works I tend to feel very little pity for them.
The arts will survive the way they have always done. By being practiced by comparatively small amounts of the population who want to put the effort into learning to follow the path of the warrior arts.
Every one else should just buy a gun and hide the bullets in the garage.
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look around inside, you just might like your-self
Posted By: mj_lover
Date Posted: 18 February 2005 at 5:49am
dojo in korean = dojang
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"So many joints, so little time!"
Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 18 February 2005 at 9:39am
quote:
mj_lover]dojo in korean = dojang
 I hope you didn't stay up all night researching that. See you Sat. I know you'll be awake...
By the way I hadn't heard the term black belt factory before. Quite the accurate description. I wonder if the "management" got theirs the same way and then self promoted from there??? Actually I don't wonder.
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Success is the best revenge.
Posted By: mj_lover
Date Posted: 18 February 2005 at 1:37pm
lol, no i didn't reaserch that, i knew that already! although i was doing a desing project. (not at 5:49am though  ) was more like 1am. later!
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"So many joints, so little time!"
Posted By: Buddy1
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 3:26am
Even in a smallish town like I live in-couple hundred thousand folks- theres'a almost literally a martials arts studio on every other block-most close within a few months-my school gets folks all the time whose previous schools have closed down-usually all they know how to do is yell really loud, execute a pitiful kick, then stand there awaiting praise...
I got lucky, when I signed my boy up (I joined later) I called some places at random from the phone book-one never called back, the other just didnt seem interested in new students (hard to believe knowing what I do now about the place-it's basically one of those black belt factorys y'all mention) but they recomended the third place-which is where we've stayed and easily has the most comprehensive program in town
I like the repetition, the hard work, I don't want to be a black belt in 6 months- I dont want my black belt test to last 20 minutes (ours is 8 hours, and only a couple people a year take it). I want life long skills, applicable in the real world, along with a sense of history and responsibility. Too many folks are just pursuing their latest interest, next week it'll be scrapbooking...
Posted By: tntdns
Date Posted: 15 March 2005 at 7:57am
My husband and I run Amerikick Karate, we have 20 schools, some with as many as 500 hundred students. Most have 200-300. We each started martial arts at the age of 13 years old. I have been involved in Kenpo 30 years and he has for 40 years. The one school he owned was a Tracy's school. Then later American Karate Studios. After that we trained directly with Ed Parker and even accompanied him on a Kenpo tour through Australia. That one school had about 100 students and was grossing 36,000 a year. It also was a dump. Our entire lives are martial arts and yes, bringing it to as many people as possible because we love it so much. Our schools smell better, and we are able to help the young men who we often lost to "a good job with benefits" spend every day doing something they love. As far as the students defending themselves, just like every sport today, Football, Basketball, the players are better. Admittedly there are less bruisers, that is also "societital." My husband Dennis Tosten has honed our curriculum so that it is not only simpler but more effective. It takes four years to get a Black Belt at Amerikick, two times a week, every Black Belt we have promoted is not great, but we have trained them all to the best of their ability. Looking back over the path we have chosen, I am so glad we did, we have 2 homes, our children have college funds, and we continue to expand. We would love to have you join us.
Posted By: boilermonster
Date Posted: 24 March 2005 at 9:28pm
Ya know, that last explanation started off sounding great and very
altruistic. Then it proceeded right over the cliff when it became all
about money. I understand and accept that I cannot expect my
sensei to teach purely for the love of the art. That would be childish.
But quite frankly, I really don't want to know that my teacher has two
homes based in part on what I pay for myself and my children each
month for lessons. When I see an instructor focused on student
population and number of schools in the chain I find myself
questioning that teacher's devotion of attention to passing on
knowledge and instructing me in the art. I choose to attend a school
that focuses on quality rather than quantity. I want to know that my
teacher will teach me the "whys" and not simply to do something
because he says so. I am not on a timetable for my black belt, nor
do I expect to attain it before I am ready. I don't want to be trained
to the best of MY ability but rather to my sensei's ability to teach me
the art.
I have seen such infighting and legal manuevering between
schools in my area that it quite frankly makes me ill. Are these
wranglings over differences in the art? Over differences in training
modalities (Parker vs. Tracy)? NO!!! It's ALL over money and who
screwed whom or who stole from whom and the value of the
"corporate name".
These problems crop up simply because schools get too big or too
many and everyone gets more concerned about the FRANCHISE than
the PRODUCT! Who suffers from all this? The students (aka: the
consumers). Ultimately they are purchasing an inferior product. In
our independent school we TEST for each stripe, each promotion.
We don't hand over a check and get a different-colored clothing
accessory.
A school that fails to provide its students with REAL
accomplishments, not merely scheduled advancement, fails them in
no uncertain terms. An instructor who would sanction such
instruction fails in the purest intention of his or her art. It is my
understanding that a black belt is charged with contributing to the art.
A "McDojo" sensei violates that mandate and, ultimately, hurts us all.
After all, folks, it's not about expansion - it's about instruction.
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samh khanh seigh... Lo Han
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RE: McDojo’s ? - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:14:20 AM
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MrRobato
Posts: 30
Joined: Mar. 8th, 2007,
Status: offline
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Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 8:20am
lastly, it huirts the art when those that can't now have Black belts! People this is our collective logo, what happens when the logo stands for crap. Quick answer we teach a more watered down version to a increasly younger student base, till finally we are seen as something vasid for the 4 yr olds to do, but uncool for the 14 yr olds
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Osu!
Posted By: tntdns
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 9:41am
Dear Boilermonster:
The students suffer when they are not trained properly. They quit when they are not trained properly. With out question we a MUCH better product now then we did 20 years ago. Why? Because we took out alot of repetive ineffective things that were taught JUST because, they were in the system, not because they were beneficial. Small schools are small because students QUIT. They quit when their needs are not being met. Expansion is a natural when you offer a great product. They way we offer great instruction is by keeping and paying the best people. I have been there, where you lose your best and brightest instructors to careers that pay better, and they come in about once a week and work out, and the instuctors you are left with are the ones who can't get a better job. Now we keep the best instructors, they are bright, energetic full time instructors who devote ALL their time and energy to martial arts. An instructor who rolls in at 5 after working his other job can not compare. We expand because one school can't support 30 instructors and their families. But 15 schools can. They stay because they have a DREAM, of passing on their knowledge and of being able to have a secure living for their families. We get paid more because we work longer and harder hours. Sometimes 7 days a week. We offer classes that are age and belt appropriate. Not classes in "small schools where the white belt is training in the same class with brown belts. And yes my husband and I get a PROFESSIONAL salary. Just like my doctor. Do you pick a surgeon, because he has the LEAST amount of patients? A professional salary allows us to operate professionally in every aspect. It's really hard to concentrate on giving great classes , when you are scrambling to pay the electric bill before it gets turned off, or your instructor can't make it in because his peice of junk car broke down again, and his parents want him to get a REAL job. So what are you saying? Our students suffer because we are HAPPY in every aspect of our careers? I think the students suffer when their instructor can not devote his full brain to the martial arts, when the school is not supported by a great team, and the facilities and equipment are sub par.
Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 12:49pm
Wow, great ad it outta appear in the NAPMA literture. The issue is'nt so much how much money you all make-how much do you cut out.
The phrase about eliminating stuff in the system that was useless is a clue. Here's a hint if instructor "A" is scrambling around trying to teach and make ends meet-why would he waste time with useless junk in the system-cuz he likes a hectic pace?
Expansion is also possible when everyone is signed into contracts and can't quit. I think it's great that you make money-But quite frankly I think the future of Kenpo looks pretty bleak (from what I've seen at the large unprofessional schools). Hell the full time staff is good at motivational tricks and games for the kids, I've yet to see many that can break the moves down.
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Osu!
Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 2:24pm
--Mod note--
Well, interesting debate and I would like to thank those participating and keeping things cool headed so far.
--End note--
quote:
The phrase about eliminating stuff in the system that was useless is a clue.
I do have to disagree here. There are many people I've heard that have removed or modified the curriculum as Parker had it. Some feel that you are more able to learn concepts when you are not busy memorizing several techniques and forms. While systems like Tracy Kenpo, descided more is better. What it really comes down to is what motivated the person to do that to begin with. Many instructor's that have done this, did without thought of comercial gain. There are also many that did it for business reasons only.
As to tntdns and his school, I can not say one way or another as I've had no experience with their schools. What I can say is I do not believe just because you have a chain of schools out there it makes it a McDojo. How seccessful you are in business does not make quality lower. To determine this, I would need to actually see your end product. Which in the case of a martial arts school, that would be your students, especially your black and brown belts.
Last, I really don't like to make snap judgements. I've learned from past experience that it is best to keep an open mind about things until I have more information.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: timh
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 4:31pm
I have heard various martial art practitioners describe many of the points made in previous correspondences. There appears to be a general belief that if a school owner is 'making too much money' that he/she must be 'selling out' so to speak. That is, the owner has commercialized the system and as a result what is taught is somehow inferior. I have seen examples of this, but I would not make the assumption without any first hand experience.
I bring my young son to a different martial art school than I attend because of scheduling and convenience. The school he attends has a very large student base and by all appearances generates a substantial income. The school owner drives a very nice vehicle, as does his wife. However, none of this bothers me. He is running a business and is entitled to make a profit and spend it as he pleases. It is up to me as the father of my son to be an informed consumer and make the decision if what I am spending is justified for the service my son is receiving. If I don't believe the fee for service is fair, than I am free to go elsewhere. Fortunately in my case I am a knowledgeable consumer, but for any service I am seeking it is my responsibility to become educated regarding the service.
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Be Aware and Stay Safe!
Posted By: boilermonster
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 7:58pm
I am gratified by the number and quality of responses to my last posting. I am not one to be a "voice crying in the wilderness", nor did I come in to kick over a hornet's nest.
I may have been misunderstood before. I certainly do not feel that an instructor must live like a pauper in order to be true to his or her art. On the contrary, a man or woman is entitled to the fruits of their labors. There is great benefit in working hard to be a success at business. The problem arises when it becomes all about the business and not about the final product. When more attention is paid to franchising, growth and expansion, and less to instruction. Many school trade on the reputation of their founder, who, with a number of schools to run, cannot possibly be involved in any meaningful way in the instruction of students. And while I agree with Zoran that one cannot make a judgment regarding a school (or schools) based merely on an internet posting, some things do appear to be self evident.
I do have to say, however, that the analogy of kenpo instructor to doctor is a bit over the top. I do not go to a surgeon because of the number of patients he has, but because of his or her reputation as an expert practitioner of his or her craft. I certainly don't go to a surgeon two or three nights a week for treatment for an extended period of time. I see a surgeon hopefully once or twice. The surgeon, through the utilization of his or her knowledge, ability and experience, will treat my medical problem, then move on to the next patient. One part of the analogy does fit, however. A doctor who pays more attention to the bottom line than to the quality of his services will likely find himself in nearly as many courtrooms as operating rooms.
Another thought I found disturbing was the "removal of repetitive ineffective things." I have had the privilege of studying with men who were actual students of Mr. Parker and are now instructors themselves (one a Grand Master). I find it HIGHLY UNLIKELY that these astute kenpoists would find very much that was "ineffective" in Mr. Parker's system. Repetitive, yes, without a doubt. But it is most often through repetition that strong foundations are built. While I understand that systems are open to improvement and interpretation, I have to take exception with what sounds like "a-la-carte karate". Mr. Parker's system has been so effective because of its' foundations and repetition, which have been passed on and preserved as a system by a great lineage of students and teachers. (Having not been a Tracy system student, I cannot speak to that system.) I also believe that having a tangible tie to that lineage is a positive for a school and its students. My instructor makes a point of bringing that lineage and history to his students, and I commend him for it.
Finally, I take great umbridge at the remark that small schools are necessarily small because students quit, and that they quit because their needs are not being met. If by their "needs" one means the need for rapid promotion and advancement, they should be counseled by a professional instructor that it's not all about the next belt color, but about truly learning and being able to demonstrate the knowledge of the material. That satisfaction should come from a lesson well learned. A properly motivated (and trained) instructor should have little or no problem conveying that lesson. We don't promote a fifth grader to high school simply because if we didn't promote them they would lose interest. There is much for them to learn before they can advance. The same goes, in my humble opinion, for kenpo.
Thanks to all for your interest.
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samh khanh seigh... Lo Han
Posted By: tntdns
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 8:07pm
We do not have contracts. You can quit anytime you want. I even say to our students when they enroll, we want to you stay here because you want to.If you would like to see our students. Stop by the AMERIKICK INTERNATIONALS in Philadelphia. April 22 and 23 at the Convention center. They are awesome, in every aspect, traditional form, sparring, extreme form and self defense.(this is an OPEN tournament so there are schools from across the country and international schools). I will agree that there are some chains out there that aren't the best/ As far as eliminating things. My husband and I have trained for YEARS, directly under many great Masters, Remy Presas, Ed Parker, Joe Lewis, Mon Gyi, along with members of the Shanghai Wushu team, the Olympic TKD team, the Olympic Judo team and more. (having a professional school allows you spend to time and money on great instuctors for yourself) They all agree on one thing. Martial arts is constantly EVOLVING and we- the martial artists of today must respect everything we learned, enforce solid basics, perfect kicks, foot positions, hand positions, stances and proper technique and HONE it and build on it as ED PArker and other pioneers of the previous decades have done. And by the way:My phrase was "repetitive and ineffectual things" I never said USELESS things. Because nothing is useless: Actually Mr. Parker told us that the strange third set in short two (rising block and downward middle knuckle, was to make a student question, what not to do") I LOVE KARATE
Posted By: boilermonster
Date Posted: 28 March 2005 at 6:33pm
I find it fascinating that everything posted seems to be taken as a personal attack. I honestly know very little about the schools which you refer to, and have tried to speak in general terms about what appears to be a fairly significant problem in the Kenpo community.
Systems are called systems because they derive their philosophy and technique from a specific origin and have been designed to be taught and learned in a specific manner. Promotion and advancement are a part of the framework of that specific system and should be granted appropriately, not in a manner to "keep someone interested". As I said before, a well-motivated and inspiring instructor should have no difficulty in keeping students engaged and interested. A student who attends a "belt factory", however, without knowledge of any other type of school or training program, is simply being defrauded in that they are not being trained as intended by the system and its goals. I do not believe, as a student, that an atmosphere of "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware) should surround karate training, but it obviously does on many levels.
If I were an instructor, I believe that I would be highly insulted at the reference to "having a professional school" as if to imply that if a school doesn't franchise out far and wide it is not a "professional" school. The small school that I attend has what I would term the CONSUMATE PROFESSIONAL head instructor. He is a man concerned about the quality of his instruction AND the success of his business. As such, he takes personal interest in the goals and aspirations of his students. His mark is on every class in the school, whether he teaches the class or another instructor takes it. He is constantly working to improve both himself and his school, and, even though he doesn't have several franchises under his name, spends the time and money to bring in guest seminar instructors for his classes AND to spend his personal time taking classes with these gifted kenpoists. I am convinced that the outstanding instruction he provides at all age levels is a direct result of this commitment to continuing personal excellence. In short, a professional instructor and school is not merely one that is paid for its services, but one that provides an excellent professional service, with a commitment to continuing excellence. This commitment is best exhibited on the mats in the classes. I have to wonder how often an instructor running twenty schools gets to demonstrate that commitment on the mats, let alone to even visit all of those programs and make sure that they all have the same commitment to excellence. It is in this manner, and not just in karate, that a brand name (or reputation) tends to get diluted. I believe that this is the dilemma for many of these McDojos. What may have started out as a good idea with good intentions in a number of cases becomes the proverbial "belt factory".
One more note, in order for an instructor to be a professional, one need not be a full-time instructor. Many of the finest teachers out there also have "day jobs". The fact that they have another profession does not in ANY WAY diminish their commitment to their art or to their students.
'Nuff said
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samh khanh seigh... Lo Han
Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 29 March 2005 at 8:06am
I actually would prefer a teacher who does'nt compromise. If that means keeping a day job to avoid lowering quality or handing out the sugar coated Jr Black belt then that's it (actuaaly i won't go to a dojo that is kid orientated)
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Osu!
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RE: McDojo’s ? - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:14:59 AM
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MrRobato
Posts: 30
Joined: Mar. 8th, 2007,
Status: offline
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Posted By: One Warrior
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 1:22pm
Lots of great insights and views! Thank you all for taking the time to share what makes you tick. I've been following the posts closely. I just haven't had time to jump in lately.
This McDojo thing is quite a phenomenon. On one hand, martial arts instruction is a business. It is a microcosm of society. It includes all sorts of people with all sorts of priorities and motivations. There is a broad spectrum of views and beliefs with just as many prospective students ready to listen to each of those views. That is the American way. Everyone gets a chance. But on the other hand, it is "martial arts." A particular way of life. A rich and historic legacy of battle-tested combat methods that should be passed down delicately to only those who are willing to take on the responsiblility and discipline it demands.
As you can see, these are views at opposite ends of the spectrum. There are all sorts in between. The fact is, the martial arts community is huge! With that comes alot of choices. We have to determine what we seek and/or need out of our training. Since our training will almost certainly include some type of teaching along the way, we have to decide what approach we will take.
I know, from my experience, I am discovering during my progress, a whole lot about what NOT to do when teaching martial arts. I don't like the whole "belt factory" image. I see way too much liquidation of a good thing. Lots of belts given away just because the student is due to advance. Way too many kids being pushed through without the knowledge and discipline to due justice to their art. And of course the proverbial "editing and deleting" that goes on as the branches fork off farther and farther from the roots.
As alot of you have stated, we shouldn't stereotype a school because of its size. We also, shouldn't base the skills and knowledge of the instructors on how many hours per week they teach. Indeed, we must examine each on an individual basis. We form our biased opinions about schools, teachers and arts because of our experiences we had and stories we hear. But let's keep an open mind while keeping an open eye. There are schools that are clearly in it for the money. There are other schools that really want to pass their knowledge to a new generation but need to sustain life while doing it. And there are those who will only teach to students who are ready to learn.
It is up to each of us to decide how deep and how pure we want to take our training and teaching. We must weigh the values we place on everything we seek in a martial art. Is it a business? Is it a passion? Is it something in between?
As a student, we must decide what we are looking for. As a teacher, we must decide why we are teaching. The subject of "how to run a school and what to teach" can and should be a whole new thread on this site. We can all learn from each others experience on this.
As for me: I want hardcore training. I want to squeeze every drop of knowledge out of everyone I train with. I want to know who, what, when, where and why. I'm not satisfied with just going through the motions and taking home a belt every now and then. I want personal growth without regard to who I impress. I want to know I've been there. I want to practice every technique at every angle with every variation I can think of. I want to go through my forms religiously and gain something new out of them with every session. When I teach, I want to instill discipline, respect and self control into my students. I want them to be equipped with as many personal tools as possible for success in any area of life. But that's me. I know lots who don't care as much about all that as I do. And thats ok. We all have our own paths. Do you want fries with that McDojo? Do you wanna "super size" it? heh. ..
Ok, sorry for babbling on and on. I wanted to say things as I thought of them while my aging brain can still remember.
Keep up the good thoughts folks! Thanks for contributing.
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~ One Warrior ~
Don't block with your face!
Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 2:48pm
Good post One Warrior. I couldn't agree more.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: kykenpo
Date Posted: 31 March 2005 at 8:01pm
McDojo's We had a few of those schools In Louisville where I grew up at. This was the 70's alot of schools were getting packed due to the Bruce Lee. The funny thing was they would say that was his style when prospective students enquired. Even if they were TKD. Having grown up in the Tracys line of Kenpo. We were more tournament oriented than most American Kenpo people. I run a small school in KY. Most of my students are children. I organise my curriculam to the age of the class. It is ridiculous to think a 4 year old child will work on the same techniques as an adult. But the child is still responsible for the basics. We do not have a Black Belt Club as I have seen in some schools where you pay a set fee and in a set short time you are promoted on schedule. I was trained that a belt is earned not given. Fortunately I have the luxary of declining students as this is not my primary occupation. I agree with the posting though that because you run a profitable school do's not mean your a sell out. The sheer madness of running even a small school is daunting enough, Insurance, Utilities, scheduling. I guess my point is look at the school. Talk to the instructors. Watch the classes. What are your goals. Self Defense, Competition, Discipline. Then match that with your choice. The number one question on my answering service is HOW MUCH DO YOU CHARGE ? Sorry abot rambeling
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kykenpo
Posted By: Saphirej26
Date Posted: 03 April 2005 at 11:13pm
It is interesting to see everyones toughts on this subject. I don't think having 1 school compared to having 15 schools should make a difference in how you run them other then the amount of employees you have. They should all have the best instructors you can get. By this I mean someone who cares about what he or she teaches and who actually knows what they are doing and really loves to do it. It is important to have the skill and knowledge of the art but it is also important to have the right motivation for doing it. Caring that your student's are actually learning and understanding what you are teaching them so if needed they have the skill to defend themseleves in a threatning situation and having the confidence knowing they can do so. Any instructor who would allow a student to get a belt just because the they have attended enough classes is giving them the false pretence that they will properly be able to defend themself. Yes it is a great feeling of accomplishment when you move up to the next rank but if it is not earned then what have you really accomplished. On the business end I completely understand the need to make a living and get the enrollment, that is what pays the bills and the salleries and there is nothing wrong with wanting to make a good living but I believe it is important to be up front with people when they come and let them know that it is not only the attendence but is also if you are picking up the material that is being tought. We give an estimated time of promotion it is not exact because it does depend on the student and their abillity to retain what they have learned and properly exacute the techniques. It is the art that should fit the person not the person to fit the art it has to work for you and the only way for that to happen is to be tought properly by an instructor who is willing to take the time needed to do so. The student is giving thier hard earned money to learn and succeed in the art at least most of them are and it is the instructors duty to make sure they leave with the knowledge and the abillity that they paid for, and if they are just there to get the belt the instructor should be above collecting the monthly payment and tell them they need to be serious about the training or find something else to do with the time and money because not only are they wasting their time but the time of the instructor and the time of the other student's who are there taking it seriously and really want to succeed at what they are doing.
Posted By: Kenpo-Father
Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 11:02am
quote:
tntdns] My husband and I run Amerikick Karate, we have 20 schools, some with as many as 500 hundred students. Most have 200-300. We each started martial arts at the age of 13 years old. I have been involved in Kenpo 30 years and he has for 40 years. The one school he owned was a Tracy's school. Then later American Karate Studios. After that we trained directly with Ed Parker and even accompanied him on a Kenpo tour through Australia. That one school had about 100 students and was grossing 36,000 a year. It also was a dump. Our entire lives are martial arts and yes, bringing it to as many people as possible because we love it so much. Our schools smell better, and we are able to help the young men who we often lost to "a good job with benefits" spend every day doing something they love. As far as the students defending themselves, just like every sport today, Football, Basketball, the players are better. Admittedly there are less bruisers, that is also "societital." My husband Dennis Tosten has honed our curriculum so that it is not only simpler but more effective. It takes four years to get a Black Belt at Amerikick, two times a week, every Black Belt we have promoted is not great, but we have trained them all to the best of their ability. Looking back over the path we have chosen, I am so glad we did, we have 2 homes, our children have college funds, and we continue to expand. We would love to have you join us.
TO: tntdns
Hello Ma'am ,
Sorry your not getting the respect you have earned (30 years in Kenpo and contributing to the art through your schools and teaching!!)
My daughter has been attending (about 4 times a week) the Wash. Twp. school for 3 years now, and I must say THANK YOU!!
Her patience, focus and dedication or should I say.... (Modesty, Courtesy, Integrity, Self-Control, Perseverence, Indominable Spirit, etc...) have increased tremendously since she started (she is 10 years old now). Learning is always going to be up to the student and what they get out of it is proportional to what they put into it ("When the student is ready..... the teacher will appear" -- unknown) I love that quote!!
It's not about which school/instructor is right, it's about which school/instructor is right for you!!! Just like Kenpo, It has to fit you!!! I attend a different Kenpo school than my daughter for just that reason.
My daughter (here is her website: http://home.comcast.net/~danielle300/ - http://home.comcast.net/~danielle300/ ) has found a home at your school and I can't thank you enough. 
I have to compliment the instructors at Wash. Twp. they do a great job!!
Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 1:42pm
Given another 4/5years of study she should be englible for Yudanshi. Seriously I'm gald you feel the school helped your daughter, realistically though you should pat yourself on the back really-any good(or bad) habits tend to be a reflection of the child parents
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Osu!
Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 3:01pm
quote:
The Kai] Teenagers now think all martial arts are a joke (they don't know the diff between TKD and kenpo).
Be careful with your blanket statements.
*goes back to read pages 2 and 3*
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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)
Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 3:41pm
Samantha
How long have you been studying?? What did you know of the kenpo arts before you got involved?
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Osu!
Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 5:45pm
About 8 months, and I knew it was based on self defense.
But even if I didnt know that - and I still know very little even after studying for these past months, I didn't think martial arts were a joke.
And you didnt say "teens who don't study MA think..." or "most teenagers think..."
I knew what you meant, but it irks me still.
quote:
tntdns]
It takes four years to get a Black Belt at Amerikick, two times a week, every Black Belt we have promoted is not great, but we have trained them all to the best of their ability.
I dont even know if she still visits this site - but its silly to have a schedule like this, in my opinon. There's no way that this is the best thing for all of your students. Some people learn more slowly than others - to keep someone on a black belt schedule is ridiculous. You're screwing your students over like this. You need to go at your own pace. I really don't know what to say about the "all our black belts are not great" comment. Probably because you promoted them too quickly. Should you really be promoting any black belt that you don't consider a great martial artist?
quote:
tntdns]
We offer classes that are age and belt appropriate. Not classes in "small schools where the white belt is training in the same class with brown belts.
What's wrong with different belts training together? The beginners can learn from the advanced students, and the advanced students can help point the beginners in the right direction. The instructor can't be everywhere at once - if I'm doing a drill and don't understand it and the instructor is helping another student, I can always ask a nearby student. And they always say that you truly understand something when you can teach it to someone else.
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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)
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RE: McDojo’s ? - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:15:28 AM
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MrRobato
Posts: 30
Joined: Mar. 8th, 2007,
Status: offline
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Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 8:00pm
quote:
Samantha]The beginners can learn from the advanced students, and the advanced students can help point the beginners in the right direction. The instructor can't be everywhere at once - if I'm doing a drill and don't understand it and the instructor is helping another student, I can always ask a nearby student. And they always say that you truly understand something when you can teach it to someone else.
I agree with samantha here. There are benefits for both the beginner and advanced student. I've learned more from teaching than any other type of training I've done. Just as long the advanced student has their own class to cover more advanced material.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 11:38pm
quote:
Zoran]
I agree with samantha here. There are benefits for both the beginner and advanced student. I've learned more from teaching than any other type of training I've done. Just as long the advanced student has their own class to cover more advanced material.
Well, our group classes are for everyone - we do new things but mostly its just ingraining the basics. All students are welcome to any group class. But our school is different than most because everyone takes private lessons, which is when you start in on the really complicated stuff, 1-on-1.
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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)
Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 15 April 2005 at 10:21am
Thr reasomn that classes are divided is two fold
1.) a 3 or 4 year old really needs a class centered around games, more games and still more games to hold thier attention
2.) It gets the students used to seperate classes for everything, now you can introduce seperate classes for weapon, competetion teams, Ground fighting and charge you for them!! Maximize profits!!
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Osu!
Posted By: taoist spider
Date Posted: 16 April 2005 at 12:40am
At Ralph Castros he has a Kids class (5 to 14) at 6 PM that is taught by black belts using the brown belts as assistant instructors. I liked this a lot, I got a lot of time to review my basics and the kids are brutally honest with you in ways that another adult would not be.
When you did it wrong they told you about it!
At 7 PM is the adult class taught only by black belts.
At 8 PM is the black belt class taught by Ralph Castro with the help of the Professor Cunninham or a couple of Sebocks. (I hope I spelled that right, At this point I don’t even dream that high!)
At all time the classes are split by general belt rankings.
I like this set up. At all times I was working on the basics and getting help with the dances that were belt appropriate.
Wednesday is slightly different as the Black belts that like sparring work out in the Adult class. This allows the lower belts to spar against all levels of fighters. I still remember the first time I scored a point on a Black Belt (I was a Green Belt at the time)
This also helps keep the Black Belts honest with them-selves and allows the lower belts to know that it is possible!
Classes are Monday, Wednesday and Friday
And yes most people at some point take a set of privates.
Taoist Spider
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look around inside, you just might like your-self
Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 8:56pm
ok, i'd like to add my two cents.
I think the McDojo phenomenon is ultimately rooted in the desire to make money from teaching the martial arts. While I think the desire to make money doing something you love is a legitimate desire, it can be trickey with the martial arts. The money comes from the students, and having more students means making more money. Bringing in students consists, in part, in selling the customer on the idea of training martial arts. This can result in the philosophy that anyone can do martial arts. While this may be true after a fashion, I think there are some qualifiers that go along with it.
First, I think that anyone can explore the possibility of training in the martial arts, and most anyone can find some level to which they can benefit and stick with the training. However, I think that not everyone/anyone ultimately reaches a level worthy of black belt, and this brings me to my second point.
My second point is that many of the McDojo type schools create a system in which they will award/give a black belt to anyone, and this is where I think they go wrong. Not just anyone is able to reach black belt level. Not everyone has the determination, self-sacrifice, and capability to reach this level. When a school alters the curriculum, or creates a curriculum, that is designed to enable just about anyone who might walk in the door on any given day to reach black belt level, then the school has become a McDojo, regardless of whether or not the instructor/owner makes a lot or a little money, and regardless of whether or not the school is part of a larger chain of schools.
It is the willingness to uphold standards that prevents a school from becoming a McDojo. Recognizing that not everyone is going to become a black belt, and accepting that in spite of the fact that it will mean that some people will leave the school, is the basis for upholding standards.
Giving quick and easy promotions to students who are not ready for them is a great disservice to both the students, and the school. The students are being lied to, and are given a false sense of security. If they ever find themselve in a genuinely dangerous situation with an assailant, their "skills" will fail them, and they will be injured or killed. When a school consistently churns out high-ranking members who clearly have inferior skills, then others in the martial arts world will take notice and the school will develop a poor reputation.
I think the McDojo can be a dangerous deception, and it is important for teachers and students to be honest with themselves and each other.
My Two Cents. Thank you.
Michael
Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 1:05am
Good post flying crane.
In my opinion, many school owners are a little short sighted when trying to make money. Where they sacrifice the integrity of the martial arts to gain more students and a better profit, they could easily make more money by having a better business plan instead.
For example, many school owners that have their own school do not use their facility wisely. They may only use 10% to 25% of their facility. By that I mean, they may have classes from 6pm to 9pm and maybe a noon class. The rest of the time is empty and not used. If you have a facility, you should be running something from 7am to 9pm.
For example:
- tai chi or aerobics in the morning
- Tai chi and/or Yoga in the afternoons (Housewives and Seniors)
- Womens Self Defense (afternoons and evenings once or twice a week)
- and what ever else you can think of
You can't teach all those yourself but you can find qualified teachers who can do it. You just pay them a split according to the number of people who sign up. Heck, you can even sublease time slots to others (example a masseuse).
If you use your facility to the fullest, you will make a decent buck and not have to compromise your system's integrity.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: timh
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 8:21am
Excellent post flying crane. Everyone can train in the martial arts and benefit from it, however as you stated, not everyone deserves to be awarded advanced ranking. I completely agree that it is a great disservice to compromise the integrity of an art to gain financial reward. It instills a false sense of confidence in students, which can be dangerous, even fatal, on the street.
I was watching TV the other day and happen to come across footage of a local parade. Students from a local martial art school were in the parade, many of which were wearing black belts. Several of the black belts looked to be between 5 - 9 years of age. Are they truly black belts? Could they effectively defend themselves in a real life situation?
Zoran, you raise an excellent point about school owners compromising the integrity of a system in order to improve revenue. From a business perspective, I can understand the rationale behind increasing revenue, especially for those individuals relying on the profits from the school as their sole source of income. However, I also believe many owners to be short-sighted and not utilizing their business to its fullest capacity. Zoran provided some great examples to increase revenue. If you look at health clubs, they offer a large variety of services, and in fact, many of them even offer various martial art/self defense classes.
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Be Aware and Stay Safe!
Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 12:20pm
TIMH, I agree with what you said about seeing very young people wearing black belts. I think this is a strong sign that the school is probably a McDojo.
I have also seen schools and demonstrations where very young people are not only wearing black belts, but are wearing three or four or five stripes on their black belts, and these are kids who look to be no older than 12 or 14, some even younger!! Seeing this type of thing can be painfully embarrassing, especially when they do a demonstration wherein everything is highly contrived and choreographed, and these people wearing such high rank still bumble their way through it.
Some young people have a lot of physical talent. They throw clean techniques, and show a lot of spirit. But I don't feel this alone qualifies them as blackbelts. Part of being a black belt is having a level of worldly maturity, that a pre-teen and teenager usually doesn't have. In addition to this, they often lack real power behind their techniques, which makes them ineffective. They may be able to show the techniques on a cooperating partner, but there remains a serious question about their ability to make the techniques work in a real situation. At the black belt level, these doubts should not remain.
When it comes to higher levels of black belt, say 3rd and up, I feel that it is inappropriate for even most young adults. Someone who is 18-25, or even 30 years old still doesn't have the worldlly maturity and experience that I feel a higher ranking of black belt requires, and implies. Once again, they may be able to perform the techniques and forms adequately, but that alone, in my opinion, doesn't necessarily justify the ranking. And of course there are always some exceptional people for whom these general rules would not apply.
I was 16 when I received my black belt, and I remember feeling both exhilarated, but also terrified. I realized that rank carries a lot of responsibilities and implications, and I was terrified that I would be discovered to be a fraud. I trusted my instructor's judgement and accepted the rank, but I was deeply aware of the fact that I had a lot of growing to do, and I have never been ranked above first degree.
I also realized that I would be woefully out of my league if I had tried to open my own school at that time, or rather, after I became a legal adult at least. It is only now, some 20 years later after I have had the opportunity to study extensively with some other talented instructors from other systems, that I have begun to feel I really deserve the rank, and that perhaps I have something to offer, as far as being an instructor goes. I am not teaching now, but some people have expressed an interest in learning from me, so it may happen. It has been this training in other systems that has clarified my kenpo for me, both in being able to better identify what I feel works and doesn't work. It has helped me to better recognize both how strong kenpo is, but also where the system has problems, and has been very enlightening for me.
I guess what I am getting at is that there seems to be a lot of people who are in a hurry, and this also contributes to the McDojo phenomenon. They want to get rank very quickly, and then they feel they are ready to jump in and be an instructor right away. This is probably a big mistake for most people, and they need to be willing to be patient and simply train to improve themselves and gather the wisdom that rank implies, and teaching demands.
Once again, just my two cents.
Michael
Posted By: Kenpo-Father
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 1:26pm
Some excellent points, however what are they based on?
I agree and disagree with some of the things being said, but what does that matter??
In order to determine things like who should wear a black belt, the quality of a school, a fair price, etc... you have to agree on measurable standards. If you could agree on a definition or set of standards then it's a simple matter to evaluate.
example....
BLACK BELT(1st Dan) - mastery of the basics
(has this person mastered the basics?)
So what if you saw a thirteen year old wearing one, or the're too young, too small, they can't be powerful, they can't understand (snap, torque and back-up mass) or can they??
how about this one....
BLACK BELT(1st Dan) - rank bestowed upon a student by an instructor based on the evaluation of measurable goals within that school or organization.
or this one....
Black Belt(1st Dan) - Proficient at matters of self-defense and a qualified "Junior Instructor"
All I'm saying is to agree on a definition:
If you want to determine someone's self defense skills - Step out on the mat and attack them, don't evaluate over the television Ha! Ha!. 
Your opinions may be correct, however you need some facts to back them up.
Just my 2 cents.
I'm not going to get into the quality of a school or a fair price because this post is already too long, but I think you get my point - we all have different opinions, but a common definition could resolve some of the differences.
So there is no confusion, I am a humble 40 yr. old novice Orange Belt who has been training for only a year and a half.
Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 3:35pm
Thank-you to Kenpo-Father. I think he has successfully identified the root of the problem, and this is what makes this topic so controversial.
There are no commonly agreed-upon standards within the martial arts. Not only is this true from one system to another, but also one school to another, and even within the same school. I have seen students of the same teacher with very similar skills, wearing very different rank, or vice-versa
Ultimately, the curriculum of a school, and the standards to be met for rank promotion, are determined by PEOPLE. It is a judgement call, and as PEOPLE, we are all subject to being imperfect.
When I may look at someone else's standards and think that they are not very high, the next guy is probably looking at my standards and thinking the same thing. This is one of the biggest factors that makes ranking sooo subjective.
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RE: McDojo’s ? - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:16:02 AM
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MrRobato
Posts: 30
Joined: Mar. 8th, 2007,
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Posted By: boilermonster
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 3:37pm
Hi all
Interesting posts on this subject once again. I'm one of those silly fools who thinks there is much of value in a "Junior Black Belt" program. I believe that children will achieve more and work harder if they are presented with achievable goals.
That being said, there must be a CLEAR delineation between a "Junior" black belt and an adult black belt. It must be clearly explained to the student (and the student's parents) what a junior black belt is. In my humble opinion it should be equated with an adult yellow belt and NO HIGHER! I also believe that the belt itself should be different - not a plain black belt as an adult would wear.
My instructor repeats constantly to his students that being a black belt is more than knowing techniques. It is an attitude, a way of life. No student (child or adult) in my opinion should be promoted to such a level until it can be determined that his or her attitude is correct - that his or her understanding of their new rank is correct. It has been my experience that some "belt factories" do not take this stance on promotion, and that is unfortunate. It does a disservice to both students and instructors. As much of a disservice to the art are the advanced black belts who award additional black belt rank to students by mail. I have been told by one with first hand knowledge of such awards (send a check for X amount and the new belt arrives via FedEx). Who wants to be the instructor who awarded a black belt at his or her studio to a student who goes out and gets his or her ass kicked because of a lack of skill? Or worse yet, the instructor of one who improperly uses his or her skills, or who awarded the knucklehead's instructor his or her black belt. I shudder just to think of such things.
I was just awarded my level one blue belt (parker system). I will state for the record that I worked my ass off for it - I studied and practiced and worked techniques, forms, foot position, etc., over and over and over again for months. I can proudly say that my instructor would not have promoted me had he not seen my hard work (in the midst of a demanding home and work schedule). I am a proud NON-MC DOJO Parker Kenpo student! Have a great day, folks!
Peace
N.B. - I didn't see Flying Crane's last post until I was finished writing - You hit the nail right on the head, bro! It IS all about people. Some of it is people's inexprience, and some of it is people's greed, or at least their desire to have a successful business regardless of the cost to the final product. The student should ultimately ask him or herself - do I feel like I have been well trained - am I really ready to advance? Gut reaction is usually the correct one.
Respects to all.
Peace
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samh khanh seigh... Lo Han
Posted By: MrSmith
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 10:26pm
What a great thread this is.
Most of the time when people in other forums (Web Site or Newsgroup), talk about “McDojo’s” , they almost all the time reference “Shaolin Kempo” .. some times TKD.. but most of the time Shaolin Kempo.. Of course, I usually disagree when the person(s) when he or she includes “all” Kenpo / Kempo schools, ( depending on the mentality of the person(s). )
In my 20+ years in Kempo, I have seen poorly taught Kempo.. but I also have seen a lot of different Dojo’s / Kwoons of various Martial Arts that are just in it for the $$$money$$$ as well..
Flying Crane posted this:
“…However, I think that not everyone/anyone ultimately reaches a level worthy of black belt…”
That is 100% correct… I have sparred with numerous “black belts” over the years.. and not just from Kempo.. and it’s really disturbing to see someone that “suppose to” be of an advanced level, and is not! Be it because of the ”quick advancement for money” factor, or improper training, or both of these. The black belts, that I have seen over the years, are adults also.. not these so called “junior” black belts (although that subject, is more salt in a open wound). It is also scary to think about all of these schools, who are making people “black belts / black sash” ECT.. and can’t properly even defend themselves.. imagine if these McDojo Black Belts had to deal with a “real threat” ? Not just a real danger of getting physically beaten and injured, but also “psychologically damaged” as well.
I have also heard for awhile, that Tai Chi also falls in the “McDojo” range..
And again, I find it true to a certain point. I learned Yang Style Tai Chi from my Uncle, and learned, not just the form, but how to apply self-defense applications from each position.. right from the start, which is “the correct” way to learn it, along with traditional weapons afterwards… However, most Instructors, that I have met, don’t even “know” how to use the art to defend themselves! Yet, they say they “know”, and are “instructors” of Tai Chi..
I agree that the McDojo idea comes from all of the above, and when Kenpo / Kempo is put in this reference, it is hard not to get angry or concerned. 
Mr.Smith http://kempo.now.nu - http://kempo.now.nu
Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:08am
quote:
MrSmith] I have also heard for awhile, that Tai Chi also falls in the “McDojo” range..
And again, I find it true to a certain point. I learned Yang Style Tai Chi from my Uncle, and learned, not just the form, but how to apply self-defense applications from each position.. right from the start, which is “the correct” way to learn it, along with traditional weapons afterwards… However, most Instructors, that I have met, don’t even “know” how to use the art to defend themselves! Yet, they say they “know”, and are “instructors” of Tai Chi..
I agree that the McDojo idea comes from all of the above, and when Kenpo / Kempo is put in this reference, it is hard not to get angry or concerned.
There are basically two forms of Tai Chi. True traditional Tai Chi/Taijiquan, and Tai Chi for Health. The Tai Chi for health is more for relaxation excercises and the like. The other is more internal focus of the chinese martial arts. Two very different animals, sort of like comparing Kickboxing with Cardio Kickboxing.
As to naming styles, I prefer we avoid this in this site. I don't like the labels people put on styles such as Shaolin Kempo. When discussing a McDojo, discussing styles does not really benefit the topic at hand. We should be able to talk about what a McDojo is, based on our opinions, without trashing an individual or a whole system. This is a part of being respectful and conducting ourselves with dignity. Something that has become a bit of a lost art within our more modern concepts of social behaviour.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 5:02pm
I need to agree with Zoran here, it is not the style or system or governing body that makes a McDojo, but rather how the art is taught and practiced, and what kind of standards are upheld.
Many people practice Tai Chi, either as the sole focus of their training, or as a supplement to other arts. And like Zoran states, it can be done for only the health benefits, which disregards the combat applications, or as a legitimate and powerful fighting art.
Tai Chi, as a fighting art is much more subtle than most of the other fighting arts. Anyone can examine the physical movements from the Tai Chi Forms, and derive combat applications. That is easy, and is no different from understanding your Katas from Kenpo. What makes Tai Chi different is the focus on combining the ability to apply technique, with the power and force of developed Chi. This is in part what makes Tai Chi somewhat controversial. It's first premise, the reliance on the cultivation and control of one's Chi, is something that not everyone is willing to accept as a legitimate principle. The existance of Chi is difficult or impossible to prove, and we are often left with the claims of those who do believe in it, and who claim to have developed it to a level in which it can be controlled and used effectively in fighting.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about Chi. I believe that something does exist, but after eight years of training in Tai Chi, I still cannot claim to have developed my Chi to a noticeable, much less controllable, level. Yet I know people who claim to feel their chi flowing from their first day of instruction. I think that most people are fooling themselves.
Assuming that Chi does exist, it takes a long time, and a lot of training to reach this kind of level. Maybe that is part of my own problem: the fact that my Tai Chi training is primarily, at least at this point in my life, as a supplement to my other "external" training, including Kenpo. If I had spent a majority of my time and efforts in developing my Tai Chi, then I might have a different story to tell.
Not only does Chi take a long time to develop, but I also believe very strongly, that most people never do reach the higher levels of development. I believe Chi has a tremendous potential, even beyond the potential of the external arts, but the vast, vast, vast, (can I emphasize enough?) majority of practitioners will never reach that potential.
That being said, I have had the opportunity to meet Tai Chi experts who I believe are tremendously skilled and powerful. But from where does that skill and power come?
Most of the Tai Chi masters today also trained in a number of external systems in their youth. This is very common in China, and in the practice of Chinese martial arts in the US. I suspect that their ability to utilize their Tai Chi skills in a real frakus stems at least in part from this earlier training. It seems to me that a solid background in external arts gives a boost to one's Tai Chi training, and training in Tai Chi gives a boost to one's ability with the external arts. It is a mutually beneficial arrangement.
I guess I got a bit off-subject here, but wanted to add my two cents.
Michael
Posted By: MAnderson
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 1:21pm
Well more then likely Im going to get introuble for this one.
Chi is explained pretty easy in my view. It is a combination of timing, breathing, muscle memory and just basic know how of techniques you have done for years, upon years, upon years.
To a new person or beginner it will seem out of this world or mystic, to fellow people who have gone through the time and effort to become this good it will seem just like a punch or what ever.
Ah well thats just me, Im pretty basic though and do not claim any other type of understanding besides the one I just gave.
A punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.
Posted By: basicblockingset
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 3:05pm
So let me get this straight. Mcdojo can be identified usually by belt
testing fees, promotions that lead to different uniforms (that cost
money), junior black belt programs, etc.
Hmmm,
I can see a point to that, however it seems to describe Kovars
system. I know a blackbelt or 2 that have come from one of Kovars
schools and quite honestly I wouldnt wanna tangle with em. So its
sort of a paradox.
OK, so perhaps a person enters a "McDojo" as you say. It just
sounds like an expensive way to train but still its the individuals effort
placed into that training that ultimately decides the worthyness to
hold the belt.
So it seems to me mcdojo or not, expensive way to go or not,,, it
again comes down to the individual effort and training.
Just my 2 cents on the whole mcdojo thing.
Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 3:55pm
quote:
MAnderson] Well more then likely Im going to get introuble for this one.
Chi is explained pretty easy in my view. It is a combination of timing, breathing, muscle memory and just basic know how of techniques you have done for years, upon years, upon years.
To a new person or beginner it will seem out of this world or mystic, to fellow people who have gone through the time and effort to become this good it will seem just like a punch or what ever.
Ah well thats just me, Im pretty basic though and do not claim any other type of understanding besides the one I just gave.
A punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.
Well, I believe that some people do see chi as simply what you have described. I can't really say for sure. I know the Chi concept is a big part of ancient Chinese Medical practices including Acupuncture, so this suggests that there is really more to it than simply timing, breathing, muscle-memory, etc., although these all contribute to the ability to put your chi behind your technique.
Big claims have been made about chi, including the ability to knock down an opponent from a distance using chi, and stuff like that. I have a hard time being a blind-faith believer when it comes to these stories, and I have not been witness to such a demonstration to make me a believer.
However, I think that in a subtle sort of way, there may be some truth behind the notion of an "energy field", for lack of a better description, that flows through our bodies, and can be implicated in the state of our health, and manipulated usefully in a combat situation.
My Sifu's Chen style Tai Chi Chuan instructor in Beijing describes the flow of his chi while practicing his forms as the feeling that he is taking a shower on the inside of his body. It is like the chi flows and sloshes, and washes over all of his internal organs. The most I have felt, which may or may not be legitimate chi cultivation, is a ball of heat in my open palms during forms practice. And I don't feel it all the time, and ususally only during specific moves of the form.
Once again, my own understanding of this all is very dim and shallow, and there are many ways to view the notion of chi. Many people discount it altogether, so I certainly can't dish out reprimands for descriptions and viewpoints that are offered.
My two cents (gotta be approaching a dollar by now!)
michael
Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 4:35pm
quote:
basicblockingset]So let me get this straight. Mcdojo can be identified usually by belt
testing fees, promotions that lead to different uniforms (that cost
money), junior black belt programs, etc.
Hmmm,
I can see a point to that, however it seems to describe Kovars
system. I know a blackbelt or 2 that have come from one of Kovars
schools and quite honestly I wouldnt wanna tangle with em. So its
sort of a paradox.
OK, so perhaps a person enters a "McDojo" as you say. It just
sounds like an expensive way to train but still its the individuals effort
placed into that training that ultimately decides the worthyness to
hold the belt.
So it seems to me mcdojo or not, expensive way to go or not,,, it
again comes down to the individual effort and training.
Just my 2 cents on the whole mcdojo thing.
Well, obviously there is no Checklist that you can use to positively identify a McDojo. Mostly, it is just your own judgement or opinion as to whether or not it is a McDojo. The traits you list can be signs of a McDojo, but are certainly no guarantee. And just because you may think that the school up the road produces lowsy martial artists, the instructor is getting rich through high tuition, uniform sales, and promotion fees, doesn't automatically make it a McDo | | |
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