Who should Teach

Who should Teach

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Who should Teach - Mar. 9th, 2007, 12:59:16 AM

MrRobato

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Who should Teach

Printed From: Kenpo Thoughts
Forum Name: General Talk
Forum Discription: General discussions on various topics on Martial Arts and Kenpo/Kempo

Topic: Who should Teach

Posted By: dragonchi
Subject: Who should Teach
Date Posted: 16 June 2004 at 10:39am

This is a follow up question to the my evolution and changing of Kenpo. There seems to be a concensus in some circles now that one must be a 5th degree black belt before they can be teaching on their own. Even though it seems decades ago it was just black belts that were teaching us all our knowledge. Now here is the question to ponder. If a person is changing the kenpo they were taught and they are changing it for the better. And this person is a 1st degree black belt but with great knowledge and insight. Since what they are teaching is new and there can be no 5th degree around to teach this new style does this not just throw out the whole 5th degree concept?
Points to ponder please share your thoughts

Replies:

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 16 June 2004 at 5:46pm

That's a pretty good question. This, like life, is more case by case. I think what many feel is by 5th, the person should be seasoned enough to go out on their own. However, rank does not denote teaching skill and in many cases it does not reflect a persons skill these days.

quote:

If a person is changing the kenpo they were taught and they are changing it for the better. And this person is a 1st degree black belt but with great knowledge and insight. Since what they are teaching is new and there can be no 5th degree around to teach this new style does this not just throw out the whole 5th degree concept?

When Mr. Parker was out making all those changes to his system, what was his rank.... But, then again, there are not many Ed Parker's out there. IMO, it all comes down to the person, what they are changing, how they are gaining their insight and so on. I don't believe in hard and fast rules, such as the 5th degree concept. Also, lets not forget the a 5th degree can mean different things from system to system.

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
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Posted By: Jerry
Date Posted: 19 June 2004 at 5:34pm

I dont think that you have to be a 5th degree in order to teach on your own. Even though at 5th degree, it is generally accepted to be the rank of "Master", I do believe that in an ideal situation, you would/should have the guidance of a senior Black Belt as you ventured out into teaching on your own. As most of us know that now teach, you learn alot from your students as you are teaching them. It makes you analyze the art even more than you did when you were only training for yourself. Also, at the 5th degree level, you are still learning and evolving in the art of Kenpo because Kenpo is an evolving process, it is a living art. You never "know it all" , so to speak. Well, thats my opinion anyways...

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BlackDrgnKenpo

Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 21 June 2004 at 9:51am

Great points in your post Jerry. I think if someone feels they are fully qualified to teach when they get a black belt they are unfortunately not only fooling themselves but their students as well. A great communicator with a black belt and an instructor/mentor however is not only enhancing their own learning curve but able to pass on quickly the answers to their students questions that they were able to check out with their instructor.

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: dragonchi
Date Posted: 21 June 2004 at 11:55am

I find it interesting that you would think a black belt is fooling themselves or their clients. I personally know of some great instructors that through a "federation" are only recognized as a black belt but because they have gone on to learn many more skills that they have added to what they teach. They far surpass many "5th" degree belts out there. Now I am going to say something that may offend some but hey we need some controversy. You are saying someone has to have a 5th or equivalent degree but in some styles of kenpo all they have done after 1st is add extensions or extras on all self defense techniques. How does this make you a better martial artist??? We all should have good basics, and the self defenses are fantastic but extensions? What is that really teaching you? Now I have been in Kenpo for years and I love the art but there are things that I believe that we should question and not just accept.
Now if above 1st black you are being taught, internal aspects of the art I think that is great and that is what should be done. But I have seen so many just adding more defenses
Years ago, 30 to be exact, my kung fu teacher kept to the old tradition of wearing sashes and there were only three..Black sash, brown (assistant Instructor) and white...there was lots to learn but we did not need the belts to be our goal...we were there to learn the art not get the belt

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Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 21 June 2004 at 12:37pm

Oops I think you may have misunderstood my point. I think if you get your first and think you can just start teaching and provide a quality program for your students you are fooling yourself and them. (I will allow that there are exceptions but not too many) However a first who is continuing to learn and knows that the first is the beginning of the journey and not the end and has an instructor/mentor that they can question could be an exceptional teacher.
I also believe that some of the circles that say you should be a fifth degree to teach are composed of fifth degrees. hmmm. I never said you have to be a fifth so I agree with you about not all good teachers having to have a fifth or higher.
I think that discussion of extensions, compounds and inserts etc would make another good topic and you may want to throw that out there and see. I know I'd contribute to that one.
All the best

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: Kempo Chris
Date Posted: 21 June 2004 at 3:56pm

I think it would depend on the system and thier ranking procedures.
If a 1st degree can change a system for the better that is awesome. I dont think it should matter if your a fifth degree or not.

Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 30 June 2004 at 2:22pm

quote:

Kempo Chris] I think it would depend on the system and thier ranking procedures.
If a 1st degree can change a system for the better that is awesome. I dont think it should matter if your a fifth degree or not.

Good point someone who has been a first for 5 years or more and is still learning under their ranking system would be different than someone who has just held the rank for a few months. I think they,(the newer black belt) should be concentrating on teaching the fundementals along with the rest of their program.
I don't know what it's like where you are but I'm seeing a lot of students who can't block, punch, kick or do their stances very well. It's too bad the general public thinks all black belts are the same and make their martial arts decision based on distance to their home. Just a personal note since based on what I'm seeing in my area.

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: dragonchi
Date Posted: 30 June 2004 at 3:15pm

Hey Rick: I have seen the same trends here. The basics suck. People want to progress and do it fast, so some in the industry are catering to them. Which is unfortunate.
So as an instructor, if you have a school that is your lively hood. Do you give the public what they think they want or do you stick by your guns and teach what you know should be taught the way it should be taught? Even though McKarate down the street is given the streamlined, fits all, wil teach whatever and is pulling in money because the public is being duped?
Any thoughts

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Posted By: Kempo Chris
Date Posted: 30 June 2004 at 3:32pm

Now adays there are a decent amount of school that teach quality martial arts and are able to beat out the Mcdojos - Never sacrafice quality martial arts to bring in more people. There are many things you can do - You have to be aware of different peoples limitatoins and capabilites. You can modify some things and impliment new systems. Many schools just want to make $$$ quick and theyn sacrafice thier art to get people in and they sometimes trade rank for $$$. You can still beat out the mcdojos.
Getting involved with Educational Funding Company and NAPMA can greatly help you.
Dave Kovar for instance is a phenominal martial artist - he's a kempo guy too - Him and his brother make 5 million dollars a year running martial arts school and he provides quality martial arts.
It can be done - But it is not easy to do it.

Posted By: Jerry
Date Posted: 01 July 2004 at 5:35pm

There are still some instructors that teach for free, just for the love of teaching.....

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BlackDrgnKenpo

Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 02 July 2004 at 11:02am

quote:

dragonchi] So as an instructor, if you have a school that is your lively hood. Do you give the public what they think they want or do you stick by your guns and teach what you know should be taught the way it should be taught? Even though McKarate down the street is given the streamlined, fits all, wil teach whatever and is pulling in money because the public is being duped?

Fortunately I don't have any choice. I do the gradings in another school and we are planning to do combined school gradings starting in a few months. If I try to pass students through who aren't ready I'll hear it from my peers and my instructor. In fact I would have a hard time sending someone out on the streets thinking they had self defence skills and have some no neck hand them their heads on a garbage can lid.
We are hoping to never have to use it but if we have to we want to arm our students properly and not just send them out thinking they are martial artists. I trust time will tell on the others who are after the $$$

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 02 July 2004 at 11:12am

quote:

Jerry]There are still some instructors that teach for free, just for the love of teaching.....

Great and more power to them. I am making a career change and plan to teach for money and I am not cheap. I have been an educator/communicator for many years, (over 30) my information is top notch and I won't grade based on time in a belt or because they try to pressure me. I think too highly of myself, my system, my teacher and my peers to put someone on for the sake of $$$ or whatever. I also have overhead and like to eat everyday. I am currently teaching part time as I grow the business and continue my own studies.
If someone chooses to teach a few students for the love of the art and pass on what they have learned I think they are really giving back to their teacher and their system again more power to them and all the success in the world.

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: EP2112
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 5:55pm

quote:

dragonchi] There seems to be a concensus in some circles now that one must be a 5th degree black belt before they can be teaching on their own.

My instructor wasn't a 5th degree when he started on his own but he was highly skilled and well informed. Plus, he continued to learn and grow as a martial artist.
I know that when you teach, it only makes you a better martial artist. You find the mistakes that you have been making when teaching and then correct them. You also make discoveries and agian this is when change begins.
EP2112

Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 07 December 2004 at 5:15pm

I have to agree teaching does make you a better martial artist. As a teacher you not only have been the attacked and the attacker as well as the observer you now get to help the participants improve their moves. One of the most enjoyable things about teaching is when you see the little light go on as the students grasps a new idea or combination of moves and gains confidence in their ability.

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: EP2112
Date Posted: 18 December 2004 at 10:11pm

One of the most enjoyable things about teaching is when you see the little light go on as the students grasps a new idea or combination of moves and gains confidence in their ability.
Are what's even funnier is when you see a light go off in the instructor!

Posted By: timh
Date Posted: 19 December 2004 at 11:56am

I do not believe there is one universal answer to your question. As Zoran replies, it varies from case to case. I have experienced upper ranking individuals that demonstrated excellent technique yet were poor teachers and those that are good teachers yet not fully competent in technique. Rank only implies competence at a designated level, it does not guarantee anything. Anyone who has been in the martial arts for some length of time has probably seen examples of the above.
Therefore if you are confident that you have something positive to contribute to others and those you teach are eager to learn from you, then it would appear you were justified to teach.

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Be Aware and Stay Safe!

Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 19 December 2004 at 9:12pm

quote:

EP2112] Are what's even funnier is when you see a light go off in the instructor!

Not When it's happening to you. It's not fun starting a sentence with a great idea in mind and half way through it you look around and try to remember what planet you're ona and why are they all staring at you.

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: EP2112
Date Posted: 31 December 2004 at 5:03pm

quote:

RickM]
quote:

EP2112] Are what's even funnier is when you see a light go off in the instructor!

Not When it's happening to you. It's not fun starting a sentence with a great idea in mind and half way through it you look around and try to remember what planet you're ona and why are they all staring at you.

What i was talking about.
Is when you are teaching a techinque and you all sudden realize why there is a certain movement in the techinque and why and how it works.
Or you come up with a different movement or way of doing the techinque.

Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 02 January 2005 at 1:39am

I'm slightly confused - I was under the impression that you could begin teaching whenever your teachers thought you were competent to do so - My instructor is 2nd degree black belt but began teaching as a brown belt... then again he started karate at the ripe old age of 6, and his dad is in charge of my local studio, but still...
But I know for a fact that at my studio for someone to recieve a 5th degree black belt ranking of master instructor they have to actually teach a student, having them reach black belt. The theory being that how can you call them an instructor unless they have actually instructed, I believe...
Then again I could be totally confused, but I don't think so.

Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 02 January 2005 at 11:06am

quote:

EP2112]
quote:

RickM]
quote:

EP2112] Are what's even funnier is when you see a light go off in the instructor!

Not When it's happening to you. It's not fun starting a sentence with a great idea in mind and half way through it you look around and try to remember what planet you're ona and why are they all staring at you.

What i was talking about.
Is when you are teaching a techinque and you all sudden realize why there is a certain movement in the techinque and why and how it works.
Or you come up with a different movement or way of doing the techinque.

Oh I see what you were saying...It's funnier my way (not at the time)

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Success is the best revenge.

Posted By: flying crane
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 5:20pm

Personally, I think this is a difficult topic to cover adequately, but I have seen a lot of good points and suggestions in this thread.
Rank is soooo subjective, that it's hard to make any standards regarding who should be teaching at what level, and is it OK to change the system. Personally, I recently made a lot of changes to the Tracy system that I learned. I found the system to be rather cumbersome, with too many self-defense techniques, many of which were very similar to earlier techniques, and many techniques that I felt were of very questionable quality. This made it difficult to practice the art, since I felt time was taken away from the quaility techniques and was spent practicing things that should not have been practiced. This had been bothering me for about ten years, and I recently whittled away the things that I felt were either repetitive, or dangerous/not useful/too contrived to be realistic. This resulted in a much more streamlined and manageable system to practice.
The Tracy Kenpo system consists of 250 self defense techniques through 1st black, and a total of 381 through 5th black. However, many of these techniques have numerous "variations", so the true total, according to Al Tracy on his website, is 600. I haven't actually counted them myself. Most of these techniques have odd names like "Crash of the Eagle, Crossing the Mountain, Drums of Manchu, etc. So, it becomes a bit of a pointless excercise, in my opinion, to try to remember Crash of the Eagle Part II, Variation J. You get my point...
I was able to review the entire curriculum through 4th black, and keep what my experience told me was worth keeping, and eliminate the rest, resulting in a revised curriculum of about 120 self defense techniques. This is what I now practice, and if I ever begin teaching, this is what I will teach. I did this with my instructor's blessing, but I am only a First Black, and he is only Second Black. I solved the issue of different levels of black, at least for myself, by just denoting the last level as simply "Black Belt", and not worry about the rest. I am certainly not going to claim this is a "new" system of Kenpo, and that I am the new Tenth Dan Grandmaster and Founder. There is already too much of that ego-maniacal nonsense going around, both within Kenpo, and within other systems.
However, I have trained for a number of years in some other systems of martial arts, primarily kung fu and capoeira, so I have plenty to offer in addition to this curriculum.
Anyway, my point being that under the right circumstances, I think it is OK to make changes that make sense to you. It's not a bad idea to get your instructor on your side, if nothing else to get another trusted, critical eye on what you are doing. In my case, I have not trained directly with my instructor for about 15 years or so, but I keep in touch and like to keep him aware of what I am up to. It probably isn't a good idea for someone who is a newly- minted black belt with only a few years of training, all of which has been under the guidance of the same instructor, to tackle a project like this, but once you have been on your own for a number of years and have continued to train, and perhaps have trained in other systems, I think you should do as you feel is best.
One important thing to remember is this: The goal of studying the martial arts is to learn the material and make it your own. You should know it inside and out, and not need to always look to your instructor for guidance on how to do every little thing. Of course this happens over time, but by the time you reach black belt, you should "own" the material. When you own it, ultimately, you can do with it as you please. It may take you a long time to feel comfortable doing things like making changes because it is easy to feel certain obligations to tradition, and to feel that you don't have enough experience. However, just remember that all the things that you learned from your instructor are simply things that were made-up by somebody in the past. None of this stuff is "sacred", and it is no desecration to make changes.
My, but how I do tend to ramble. Hope this helps, in any way at all.
My Two Cents.
Michael

Posted By: gallardo
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 11:27pm

Hello there!
-I must say that I totally disagree that only a 5th degree should b allowed to teach.
I have been in martial arts for 21 yrs. Of those, the last 13 I have been under the same master. When I first began with him he was a 3rd degree, and is currently a 6th. His master is currently an 8th degree. Under him, and in a period of 13 yrs I have reached a 3rd degree. In our system belts r not given out like sausages. One must understand though, that it is very commercia,l and profitable to give black belts out systematically in a period of 3 yrs. Some may earn it in that time frame, and many do not. however, when one weighs everything a black belt means... it is not just learning self defense techniques, it is not just sparring. One must b able to use everything one has attained naturally, without thought as a reaction. There r many things that r not physical aswell, constraint, confidence, respect, humility. once u have reached these goals, u may b ready to receive the privilege and responsability of ablack belt. And once there, a whole new world of learning opens up to u. Yes u might b able to teach, but there will b many who will b able to teach and influence u to new levels.
-From black belt on... We incorporate a lot more then just extensions.

Posted By: basicblockingset
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 1:49am

In prior conversations with my shihan I have been told he doesnt
think anyone should run there own school unless they have been
training for 15 years. For me personally its really not an issue as I
get ready for my upcomming blue belt test. However I found it
interesting he didn't notate belt level.

Today I was in a conversation where we covered the same ground.
Something he said made a lot of sense and I relate it back to our
initial conversation.

"You cannot replace mat time"

For me that makes a lot of sense. Now personally I am too new in
my training to make a judgement call on if 15 years is too much to
spend training prior to running a dojo. But the mat time statement
puts things in perspective for me.

Posted By: KJ88
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:11am

When you train you should listen to the things that are said and disregard the belt. If the person giving you the information is both technically and accurately correct does it matter what colour the belt is?

good question!

Posted By: MAC1
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 9:19am

i don't think it matters, i work out with a 4th dan he teaches tae kwon do,when we sparr every other week he says to me i've learned or show me, my unoffical level is blue in kenpo,but in his class he told the them tha i'm to be respected as a high black(honorary), we are still exchanging ideas

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jbMAC

Posted By: Sadie
Date Posted: 16 October 2006 at 3:50pm

I don't think it matters what belt you are, you're always going to need other people to bounce ideas and new techniques off of and learn from, as far as formally teaching goes there should probably be a head instructor who knows what theyre doing (the belts vary too much to really put a degree to it) but have others co-teach

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Post #: 1

RE: Who should Teach - May 31th, 2007, 1:18:43 AM

Kosho Warrior

Posts: 7
Joined: May 16th, 2007,
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I think it is silly to put limits on something like teaching, you can tell if someone is qualified just by the way they teach. I have met some really bad blackbelts in my day and think they just got there belt through time and grade. Being in the military right now I have seen it alot. There is alot of people that are put in leadership positions that should never be in charge of anybody. The fact of the matter is, if someone can offer good instruction you should give them the chance to expand the martial arts. Dont put limitations on people, some people will suprise you.

(in reply to MrRobato)

Post #: 2