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MrRobato -> RE: The Art of Boxing (Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:20:44 AM)
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Posted By: KGS BBS
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 8:02am
I believe we are all on the same page! I, too, have found once you learn one of the Hawain derived Kenpo/Kempo systems it is very easy to pick up techniques and/or forms from other Hawaiian derived systems. Why? Simple. Scratch through the surface and they are all pretty much the same, only difference being some stress more groundwork and jiu jitsu than others. The 'core' of all these Hawaiian systems, the 'theme' which makes them Kenpo/Kempo, is the same root. It cracks me up when I hear those who claim superiority in their systems, the 'my system is better than your system mentality'. However, I do feel that if a system does not include some form of the 'grappling mode' than it is lacking somewhat and falling short of being a 'balanced' system for the street but that's really not a problem either for you can just add the grappling to it!
Another thing I have noticed that can happen is the lust for speed. Probably because of what we see on the silver screen we can get the impression the faster the hands the better. In my opinion what happens is that the hands become so fast that they get ahead of the hips. The hips just can't keep up and the stances have to give up some depth and lose grounding or rooting so that the hands can fly at supersonic speeds-the end result? You end up hitting with simply 'arm power' and you lose the 'third eye' concept, 'the hips' and the extension off the floor or ground-the strong base or stance. I have heard some of the older seniors say that Professor Chow's power came from his very strong stances. Of course we need a balance between 'stabilty' and mobility' also. By all means we want to maintain good speed but there is a limit where we lose our total body focus-'kime'. I think that a good kenpo/kempo student should develop the all out POWER of Japanese karate, like, let's say Shotokan, coupled with the FLOW and ability to go 'rapid fire' to overwelm if neccessary, as in the Chinese arts, Kung Fu. Mix that together with the 'grab arts' and you've got a well balanced fighter. Just my feelings toward the whole thing. Respectfully, Joe
Posted By: KGS BBS
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 8:23am
I would also like to comment on relying on gross motor skills over fine motor skills when under the stress of real combat conditions. I have been a police officer since 1977 and have been involved with the training of police officer since 1985. You are absolutely correct! That's why I gotta laugh when I read some kenpo/kempo people discussing prearranged techniques, how this has to be done exactly like this for this and that reason and concept and principle, blah, blah, blah. Don't get me wrong, concepts and principles of movement and body mechcanics have to be learned and assimilated. Techniques make this possible but some treat the techniques of their system like the 'Holy Grail' of the fighting arts and what's even funnier is that they make fighting, which in my opinion is so simple, overly complicated! Way too analytical. Man, you would think they were breaking down the theories and principles of nuclear fusion for the hydrogen bomb, lol. When I hear this or read this it makes me think these individuals have never applied their skills in real life situations or if they did, it was against a drunk who could hardly walk or a poor fighter but certainly not the 'RINGER' that we should all be traing for, know what I mean?
Again, I too agree on each individual having their own 'personal' core techniques and forms that fit them like a glove, however, I do feel that they have to be presented with, not too much of an overload, but still a good variety of techniques and forms to choose from by their instructor. Sort of like a menu. If the three of us go out to eat together we may all pick something different off the menu but it's at the same restuarant and prepared by the same cook, only difference is each meal suits our personal tastes. That's how I view martial arts training. Respectfully, Joe
Posted By: monkey san
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 11:17am
I feel as if I have just experienced Spock's "Vulcan Minnd Meld" with eveyone.
The old-style boxing- stances, guards, even punches, and takedowns are very similar to the old karate. If you have seen the picture of Choki Motobu with his morote-uke guard, compare that to the old boxing guard. The low stances to protect from a tackle or hip toss. Chopping hammer punches, swinging uppercuts, inverted hooks, and solar plexus shots all to protect the gloveless hands. Add in the fouls like elbows, knees, stomps, thumbing, head butts, arm wrenches etc. and the lines between the two get blurry.
I researched the older okinawan traditions to better understand the japanese shotokan kata. I came away with a new appreciation for them and often prefer them to the okinawan counterparts. I don't see them as simplified or dumbed down like the okinawan stylists do. I see them as focused. Ballistic and direct, geared towards multiple larger opponents.
"I think that a good kenpo/kempo student should develop the all out POWER of Japanese karate, like, let's say Shotokan, coupled with the FLOW and ability to go 'rapid fire' to overwelm if neccessary, as in the Chinese arts, Kung Fu. Mix that together with the 'grab arts' and you've got a well balanced fighter."
I feel that sums up Professor Chow perfectly. Add some line drills, naihanchi, Honsuki and bam!
Posted By: MAnderson
Date Posted: 21 November 2005 at 2:35pm
quote:
KGS BBS] ...Sort of like a menu. If the three of us go out to eat together we may all pick something different off the menu but it's at the same restuarant and prepared by the same cook, only difference is each meal suits our personal tastes. That's how I view martial arts training. Respectfully, Joe
Good analogy. Similar to a chef. Its amazing what you can do with chicken and salt and pepper. Three ingredients only. Depends on how you cook them (boil, broil, fry, etc...) add just one other ingredient say a red pepper or a lemon and you can make a dozen more dishes. Your base is always that chicken and S/P. You will never go hungry with that.
Now plug in your "Core" techniques (Mine are "Chin Jab", Hammer Fist and Knees) its my bread and butter. Its all I really use repeatedly. I use them on everything and everywhere for anything. Its just that one alteration, a slip, a cover block, a preemptive head butt, etc... you name it. I think its the only way I am capable of actually surviving an attack. My mind is to simple and bogs down with to many choices before it. So I cut what I couldn't do.
"Tastes like chicken..."
Posted By: monkey san
Date Posted: 22 November 2005 at 11:27pm
Balistik Mike, I am picturing you chaining the chin jab with the hammer fist getting your opponent backpeddling, covering, and fly swatting? He tries to clinch, the knees come in creating space for more foward drive? Pinning his foots with yours could be interesting. To me, its all about the back peddle. Like the way I described, the one-two, the "wheeling attack" , or wing chun style blast. I just try to get my guy retreating straight back.
Posted By: MAnderson
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 7:16pm
Monkey,
Thats pretty good. I wish everything went that well when a scuffle came about.
You are correct that is the idea. Forward drive. Move through your opponent. I call it the "Blitz Line" staying with the termonolgy I gained from Mr. Sav. Picture an arrow pointing directly forward through your opponent. Its your job to follow the arrow. Doesnt matter how you got there, escaping a hold, turning and facing your attacker, at some point in a successful self-defense scenario you will need to face your opponent or you will be escaping by running.
That back peddling does two things. 1 - It gets the bad guy on the defense and it stops him from thinking about caving your skull in. 2 - It interupts his counter attacks. Which leads us back to why a boxer is so dangerous. A boxer is used to that forward pressure and he will angle off, circle step, slip the high shots and counter attack. It is that skill of learning to deal with "Forward Pressure" that makes that boxer very dangerous.
"Get them on their heels" is a great offensive move and it is in nearly every contact sport.
A small subtle thing I have noticed. The Karate-ka guys when they c-step, half moon step they skim their feet along the ground and make that c - motion or they move straight ahead with their foot work still skimming the ground while they step. I have found you will lose balance when doing this at full "Street" speed. I now teach and practice stomp stepping. Moving that foot forward violently and stomping down. It ensures good foot work and placement as well as a natural counter from a leg tackle or sweep just from the forward pressure being created. Its hard to grab that leg and sink that foot down when it is 12" or more above the ground then when it is just skimming the ground. Looks ugly as hell but it works and I have used it in a scuffle or two.
All of my self-defense techniques are now escapes and then Forward Blitz or escape. Grabs, Punches, Shoves, Tackles, doesnt matter address the situation and then blitz. Goes for all weapons also.
Posted By: MAC1
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 5:20am
that stomp move is also a great defense mech, if done with attitude, it will disturb your oppenetor draw his attention once you observe change in them move in. it's as i said still first one to get there
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jbMAC
Posted By: MAC1
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 5:28am
happy thanksgiving everyone enjoy!!!!!!!!!
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jbMAC
Posted By: KGS BBS
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 8:00am
Mike stated: "My mind is to simple and bogs down with to many choices before it. So I cut what I couldn't do". Mike, I think anyone's mind would bog down with too many choices before it. You're certainly not alone. It would cause hesitation. Nothing wrong with simple, imho, keeping it direct and simple wins fights. "Joe"
Posted By: MAC1
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 10:32am
that's okay,but you or your body has to know when does it become a natural response. when you trip and fall i'm sure you don't aske yourself should i roll, put my hands out, slap the ground you just react, so if you'd practice for a long time the decissions are not bogged it's just reactions
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jbMAC
Posted By: MAnderson
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 11:42am
Yes that has meritt.
Practicing techniques for long years will engrain them into your muscle memory and become part of your body.
I also think that if you drill them for so long you come to realize after the initial movement of defense (Block, slip, preempt, etc...) it all boils down to the same thing. Destroy vital targets and escape the situation.
Grafting, borrowing all of these are used to describe "free flow". You are just reacting to given targets and destroying them or attempting too (because you will miss).
Unless you have trial under fire or you train in an emotional state similar to an actual assualt on your being, you have the chance of 'Bogging" down. Of freezing.
If you relate it to a sports car and its gas you could make a similar camparison to your body and the fuel it uses (Adrenalin). If your body is used to using this fuel, if it is in shape to process it efficeintly you will have a much better chance of surving that initial attack (which is the most important aspect of any self-defense situation). A very real problem that happens to many MA's is that they are not used to that "initial attack" and the car (body) bogs down because it cant process that fuel (Adrenalin).
Which brings me back to my idea of core techniuqes that you are awesome at and how you use them. Fighters have 1 - 2 bread and butter shots, chokes, locks, hooks, etc... MA's have many techniques upwards of 30+ which is great for training, coming up with new ideas and concepts, mapping vital targets, understanding how the body MAY move during an encounter, exploring and research. Its all good. The danger comes into reality with just those 2 shots that the "Bad guy" is really good at. A boxer is that - Dangerous.
Tripping and falling I have been doing since birth. Kenpo, CACC & Combatives I have only been doing for 13 years. Falling is easy its not getting hurt thats the hard part. Fighting is easy its not getting hurt that is the hard part. When you compare a simple task of falling and slapping out to the mechanics of a self-defense technique you are comparing apples and oranges.
It would be better to compare the fall and slap out to the slip and jab of a boxer. Simple effective. Not the combinations of a regulated Kenpo self-defense technique. Better yet compare the fall to not just down on the floor but down a mountain side. You will need to roll and slap out quite a bit to survive that fall, now that is more inline with a 5 - 6 count combination of a Kenpo self-defense technique.
I agree with you that training long and hard will enable your body to understand, react and adapt with the techniques you have learned. Its brings us back to the boxer, they do the same thing only with 4 - 6 shots (depending on the trainer) from every conceivable angle, again many different types of opponents and skill.
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Mike Anderson
Kenpo/CACC/WWII Combatives
Hit First - Hit Hard - Hit Often
Evil will only succeed when good men allow it to.
Posted By: MAC1
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 6:12pm
right, i like the way that was interperted, even in boxing and/ fighting it's chess, it's physical conversation with undnieable results.
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jbMAC
Posted By: MAnderson
Date Posted: 25 November 2005 at 3:07pm
I will differ with you on this about the chess match. A boxing match - yes comparable to chess, a MMA - match yes again comparable to chess, A BJJ tourny or Wrestling tourny - Yet again comparable to chess...
A self-protection encounter...no not comparable. In chess and the sporting events people are playing under the same rules, a start time is in effect and an end time is in effect. Opponent's are usually known, but not always. The match you have entered you have prepared for and have a sepcific game plan enabled.
The street ? No idea when, who, what or where you are going to get clobbered. You have to have a game plan but it is a big one, an idea? Maybe just a general guide not as specific as taking on a known opponent in match. You need to worry about weapons, a second or third attacker, your children or your wife, there is so much more to think about when you compare a street encounter with a match encounter. Are you sick? is it snowing? is it dark? are you drunk? so much to be aware of.
Its because of these things that must be taken into consideration why I dont make the comparison of a match vs. reality.
Dont get me wrong the match has an integral part and needs to be practiced. The ground game, hard pressure during sparring, resistance, its a necessary part of the entire whole. Just like basic drilling of your basic techniques. It all comes together.
You can also go beyong pressure testing all the time and revert back to your basic training, once you have been in the mix, once you are decent enough at delivering full power shots at someone not letting you...it sticks with you.
Its why combat veterans are just that much better then "Cherries" when going into combat. That experience is a very real and measurable thing. Matches help this, but only a portion... a drill with consequences (pain).
Enough rampbling back to work.
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Mike Anderson
Kenpo/CACC/WWII Combatives
Hit First - Hit Hard - Hit Often
Evil will only succeed when good men allow it to.
Posted By: MrSmith
Date Posted: 05 January 2006 at 11:01pm
This is a good thread. [image]http://www.kenpothoughts.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif[/image]
When I learned Kempo, the boxers "covering up" was common practice. Learning the basics of boxing is really worth it. Try to use regular "fore-arm blocks" against someone who is doing quick boxer jabs at you, and you'll see fast, the how effective boxing can be.
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