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MrRobato -> Ground Work (Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:27:48 AM)
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Ground Work
Printed From: Kenpo Thoughts
Forum Name: General Talk
Forum Discription: General discussions on various topics on Martial Arts and Kenpo/Kempo
Topic: Ground Work
Posted By: Zoran
Subject: Ground Work
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 4:32pm
There has been some hoopla from many kenpoists about ground fighting. There was a time when you only needed the bare minimum for self defense. Now, with other systems more prolific in ground fighting, there is a need to address this. Not from a competetive perspective, but one from a self defense angle.
Now before we go with the "I can just poke them in the eyes" answer, I would recommend attending or working with a grappler before you make that statement. After all, if that was all one needed for self defense, then what is the point of training at all.
So what, if any, ground work to do you have at your school?
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Replies:
Posted By: Samantha
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 10:31pm
we don't have any at all. I've learned ONE ground technique in one group class - and its for when you are on the ground and your attacker isnt.
The other technique for when you are pinned to the ground with some one straddling your hips holding your hands down above your head (an "I'm going to rape you" position) my friend taught me after learning it from her instructor - but she had to ask for that specifically. I'd be too embarrased to ask for that.
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Kenpo Addict -getting my fix 6 days a week
"I wanted to start shaking down random people, but apparently that's not legal..." (MJ_lover)
Posted By: mj_lover
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 10:46pm
good question, we don't have much either. defence against armbar, headlock, hands pinned, and if there trying to kick you when your down.
personally i think its very important, and much over looked, this might just be my judo background though.
this could be an interesting thread
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"So many joints, so little time!"
[image]http://www.geocities.com/bummtek/a_hit.gif[/image]
Posted By: timh
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 8:14am
Excellent topic. I have trained with many 'traditional' martial artists that are good on their feet, however are completely out of their element on the ground. UFC and the like competitions have opened the eyes of many as to the relevance of ground fighting. I understand that they are sport oriented, but even on the street most fights end up on the ground. As Zoran stated the obvious, "you can just poke them in the eyes", many martial artists that have never been on the ground would likely feel so uncomfortable that they may freeze. In additon, someone that is good on the ground is generally capable of positioning themselves in such a manner to avoid such a defense, let alone having your hands/arms tied up.
Other elements to street situations is the clinch (tieing someone up on the feet)and takedowns (getting someone to the ground). These areas are taught and practiced within judo and wrestling (folk, freestyle, greco roman), yet often overlooked in tradional standup based martial arts. I had wrestled for many years and believe me, a good wrestler can take down at will almost anybody that has had no or little experience. Often, the takedown in itself can end a street situation (i.e. lift and dump from single, double leg, body lock, etc.). While in high school I was involved in two situations where I had shot in on a double and lifted and dumped the person on cement. In both instances they were left initially unconscious and one went to the hospital for a concussion. I do not say this to boast, I was not the initiator in either case. The gentlemen were much larger and older than I and my background was wrestling, so I did what came natural. But they are real life examples of the practicality of strong takedowns.
Regarding the ground, there is the positioning attributes and specific techniques. In teaching people ground fighting, I have found people can learn techniques much more easily than proper positioning. If ones positioning is weak (i.e. gaps, lack of balance/levarge, etc.) than it will be very difficult if not impossible to execute a technique.
I believe many schools do not teach grappling because the instructor(s) is/are not familiar with it. If one desires to properly prepare him/herself for what he/she may enocounter on the street, then he/she should train in all areas of fighting/defense (standup, clinch, takedowns, ground).
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Be Aware and Stay Safe!
Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 08 June 2005 at 1:06am
Tim, I agree with your post almost completely. Except for a small correction.
...even on the street most fights end up on the ground.
This is something the Gracie people used for their marketing. I believe it is a statistic taken out of context. It was said the 90% of all fights end up on the ground. From what I heard, they took a statistic from the prisons or PD. Which if the police are involved, it is very likely they would take someone to the ground to control and cuff them.
However, my experience bouncing I found it is more like a 50/50 ratio from all the fights I've seen. To those fights I was involved with, less than 10% went to the ground. As a bouncer, controling someone on the ground is not what you wish. You want upright control so you can get them out the door. But my earlier ground training was very handy in those situations it did happen.
Even if my estimation is more the norm, it still tells you that ground work is essential. Especially if you run into someone that does know what they are doing down there. Which in one of the cases where I did go to the ground, it was against someone who had some training on ground work.
P.S.
Did you know John McSweeney used to teach some basic escapes against mounted position back before the UFC craze? It was from his Judo background and I was there one time when he was showing us a few things. I think is was around 1992 or so.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: MrSmith
Date Posted: 11 June 2005 at 9:56pm
Zoran,
Some Kenpo/Kempo have jujitsu or aikijutsu arm and wrist locks and throws, plus ground type fighting from either or both. Also a few kenpo/kempo dojo/kwoon's styles also have aikido. Any one of the 3, very effective in ground fighting.
I'm surprised that a lot of kenpo/kempo dojo's now a days do not teach any ground fighting. Very differn't then things use to be..
Mr.Smith
Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 12 June 2005 at 12:37am
quote:
MrSmith] Zoran,
Some Kenpo/Kempo have jujitsu or aikijutsu arm and wrist locks and throws, plus ground type fighting from either or both. Also a few kenpo/kempo dojo/kwoon's styles also have aikido. Any one of the 3, very effective in ground fighting.
I'm surprised that a lot of kenpo/kempo dojo's now a days do not teach any ground fighting. Very differn't then things use to be..
Each system is different. Many schools don't teach ground work for many of the reasons TimH listed. One reason I found is that there are many instructor's that just don't believe ground fighting is very practical or effective. Some of this information comes from their experience working with wrestlers. Until you work with a good ground fighter, you just won't know period. We were fortunate enough to have a fighter in the UFC early on. So we learned first hand how effective they can be. As the old saying goes, "feeling is believing." Once we believed, we looked for a solution, not excuses.
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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network
Posted By: samoan
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 1:11am
ground work to me is extremely important. Traditionally our school does not really incorporate too much ground work, but after UFC and all these other tournaments sprang up, a lot of focus was brought to the ground. We had to adapt to that so we brought in people to teach us how to do jujitsu. I tell you what, the first time I trained with the jujitsu instructor, i felt like I was just getting sucked into him and smothered. Sure there were probably somethings I could have done like an eye gouge or something, but that would have been if I could get one of my arms free. After a few years of stdying jujitsu I can say I am somewhat proficient at it, but nowhere near mastering it. The good thing that you learn about your kenpo, though, is that no matter if you are standing upright or on your back or upside down, a lot of the principals, strikes and techniques may still apply. You'd be surprised.
Also, with Jujitsu you learn how to subdue an attacker more passively. Especially with the law today you might get hit with an excessive force or something for the crippling style that we train. It's always good to know something different in order to subdue your opponents. Eventhough I had a background in wrestling , i had a hard time transitioning to jujitsu because in wrestling, being on your back is death, but in jujitsu, you learn to get very comfortable on your your back/guard. Trust me, I had to learn the hard way on that.
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I come to you with empty hands...
Posted By: MrSmith
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 4:45pm
quote:
Zoran]
Each system is different. Many schools don't teach ground work for many of the reasons TimH listed. One reason I found is that there are many instructor's that just don't believe ground fighting is very practical or effective. Some of this information comes from their experience working with wrestlers. Until you work with a good ground fighter, you just won't know period. We were fortunate enough to have a fighter in the UFC early on. So we learned first hand how effective they can be. As the old saying goes, "feeling is believing." Once we believed, we looked for a solution, not excuses.
Well said Zoran..
In my dojo where I first learned Kempo, I was taught aikijitsu Arm and wrist locks and throws and ground fighting..I wouldn't have skills that I have now, without that training.
Before my Kempo training, I thought that I just needed to know how to punch and kick, until one of my friends, lightly but effectively put me into a hold and a takedown on to the street! [image]http://www.kenpothoughts.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif[/image] Again, that was before my Kempo training...
Now, when I teach people Kempo, I devote an entire class to aikijitsu techniques. It's that much important for self defense. My 2 Cents.
Mr.Smith
Posted By: RickM
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 6:14am
quote:
mj_lover]good question, we don't have much either. defence against armbar, headlock, hands pinned, and if there trying to kick you when your down.
personally i think its very important, and much over looked, this might just be my judo background though.
this could be an interesting thread
It's coming, it's coming along with the other stuff I promised for this summer.[image]http://www.kenpothoughts.com/forum/smileys/smiley15.gif[/image]
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Success is the best revenge.
Posted By: mj_lover
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 8:04pm
good good, i would also wish you good luck on your 3rd black test? 3 weeks was it not?? do get hurt to much, the fun will only begin if you return in one piece....and we want our fun!!!! [image]http://www.kenpothoughts.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif[/image]
What RickM is saying is that in Kanzen, we are working on incorperating more judo and jujitsu techniques, as well as mat sparring (good ol' grappling match)
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"So many joints, so little time!"
[image]http://www.geocities.com/bummtek/a_hit.gif[/image]
Posted By: MAnderson
Date Posted: 11 July 2005 at 7:28pm
First hello I will post an introduction in the intro room after this.
Are we talking grappling/wrestling or are we talking ground fighting. They are two very different creatures.
Grappling/wrestling has an enormous place in learning how to ground fight. It teaches you conditioning/toughness, positioning, ground movement, locks, holds, pins, etc... that are all needed in the "Game" of grappling. Grappling/wrestling is a must, it allows you to get a sense of danger without it actually being life threatening. Nothing beats get your ass handed to you repeatedly by a much more skilled grappler. You will learn a lot ... IF you bring the warriors mind to the table and not the competitiors mind to the table.
I would love to see a set curriculum in most schools that address grappling/wrestling at least once a week FOR LEARNING to ground fight, NOT be a competitior. There are much better coaches and schools out there for that. You can as a Kenpoist understand the basics of the ground game so you become aware of what your tools can be. Awareness will help take away that panik you will feel when you first find yourself on your back or worse on your stomach pinned as blows rain down on the back of your head.
What I really want you fellow Kenpoist's to understand is that your Kenpo works on the ground quite well. It isn't a far cry to say "Poke them in the eyes" will work and it will work quite well. The problem is you will need to fight for it and also understand if you make a mistake you may very well get your elbow and shoulder broke very quickly.
The vulnerable parts of the body standing are still vulnerable on the ground. Will your straight palm to the chin work, no not like a strike, but a slow stalking palm driving through his jaw hinge and pressing your opponent's head into the pavement or the rough carpet of the bar will. The creeping of your fingers across your attacker neck seeking his eye sockets as you bite his shoulder and grab and twist his "love handles" will cause movement. Which creates space. Which creates escape routes. Which leads to standing and running away or stomping.
Physical fitness will be a must because grappling will fricken own you in seconds if you are not in condition. SO WILL A LIFE THREATENING ENCOUNTER.
Remember your elbows and knees on the ground are very effective. Small space creates distance and a very small distance is all that is needed for knees and elbows.
As Kenpoists you do not need to fight the "Chess Match" you need to fight for survival and that includes bitting, gouging, ripping, tearing, pulling, twisting, pushing, striking any and all targets you are capable of damaging. You must have some knowledge though of the danger you are in with an experience grappler and quickly he can put the hurt on you.
Your Kenpo works on the ground. Explore it.
Posted By: mj_lover
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 11:17pm
you can explore to an extent in training, you will never get the feel of something untill you do it, and you can't really practise fighting on the ground realistically without alot of damage, heck, even sport grappling is damaging. explore yes, know your options yes, get familiar with the ground thru competitive games, mixed with fighting drills.
i know this is allot like MAnderson's post, but he has good points
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"So many joints, so little time!"
[image]http://www.geocities.com/bummtek/a_hit.gif[/image]
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