villari shaolin kempo

villari shaolin kempo

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villari shaolin kempo - Mar. 9th, 2007, 1:00:54 AM

MrRobato

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villari shaolin kempo

Printed From: Kenpo Thoughts
Forum Name: General Talk
Forum Discription: General discussions on various topics on Martial Arts and Kenpo/Kempo

Topic: villari shaolin kempo

Posted By: ROGUE
Subject: villari shaolin kempo
Date Posted: 01 February 2005 at 7:49pm

I'm new to forum's so slap me down if i do something wrong!
My question is in regards to the villari kempo system. Is this a viable system or not a true KENPO/KEMPO system. I ask because i am looking to get back into MA. I was a third brown in American Kenpo 10 years ago and want to start up again.
All i find on other sites are Mcdojo references and alot of politics.
just want to know if this system is all fluff or similar to the hard core Kenpo system i started in. Looking for honest neutral opinions not looking for who thinks their system is best

Replies:

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 02 February 2005 at 12:52pm

Vilarri is from the Chow/Cerio lineage of Kenpo. I've also heard the various McDojo references also, but I've had no experience with the system. I would imagine it will depend on the instructor.

quote:

Is this a viable system or not a true KENPO/KEMPO system.

Really no such thing as a true kenpo system. Kenpo is so diverse that you really can't say one is true and one isn't. All we can do is judge it's effectiveness.

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: ROGUE
Date Posted: 02 February 2005 at 8:15pm

Thanks for the reply!
Let me try from a different angle. If for the most part Kenpo/Kempo comes from the same lineage, could a person expect to see a common thread in the various offshoots?. For example would the forms/katas/pinans be the same up to BB and then one would see the differences in the forms after that or would the forms movements remain the same but certain techniques change i.e. a finishing blow using a punch in one system and another system would use a joint lock or throw? I'm just trying to get a grasp on all the offshoots. Some systems say they lean towards the Japanese style some go Chinese.
My thought is that if a person study one could go to another system and pick it up fairly quick? or am i way in left field?
Thanks ZORAN for having a place where i can ask stupid questions and at least have you answer them.

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 03 February 2005 at 3:14am

Good question.

First you need to look at what Kenpo means. In essence, Kenpo is a Japanese word that is the equivilant of the chinese word Chuan Fa. Many of the systems that use the word Kenpo in them are systems with Chinese origins from Japan. Such as Shorinji Kempo that has no direct lineage to any of the Kenpo/Kempo systems out there. Yet it is called Kempo because of its chinese origins.

Now if we stick with the Chow lineage styles, you will definantly see similarities and may have very little problem learning another system of the same lineage. But the techniques and forms could be completely different. For example, the american kenpo forms are unique to the Parker lineage as they were originally started by Ed Parker and Woo. Now the Cerio lineage forms include some Shotokan forms and Kung Fu forms. As to the Villari curriculum, I am not sure but I would imagine a lot of the Cerio stuff is there.

My thought is that if a person study one could go to another system and pick it up fairly quick? or am i way in left field?

Could be true, but the only way you could tell is to try it. Maybe if they offer a introductory program so you can test it out. If you do, come back and tell us you experience.

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: Parker Boy
Date Posted: 08 February 2005 at 2:33pm

well actually... Villari learned from a few people whom learned Ed Parker American Kenpo. The people that taught Villari only went to about purple belt in the parker system and then broke off and instantly upgraded his rank to black belt. THey did not officially earn a black belt. So all the Villari stuff out there that claims they are doing Ed Parker kenpo... most likely isnt. A good way to make sure it is Ed Parker kenpo is to go to this site, and read up on the original techniques and forms in the system. If you see anything else ... its not really Ed parker kenpo seeming as NO changes have been made to parker kenpo ever all the info is the original stuff. And as a little bit of advise. I wouldnt go with villari. i am 14 and i watched some of the villari videos. I founda many many loop holes in the system that would allow u to be attacked again and beaten down. Any system that tells u to try and get away from the attack before stricking the attacker is not a good idea. You should try and block the attack and then either attack back or retreat. This is just my opinion but i hate villari karate

.

If you dont agree with anything i have said... i would love for you to reply and tell me what you think.

Posted By: Parker Boy
Date Posted: 08 February 2005 at 2:44pm

Here is a list of official American Ed Parker kenpo karate material... short form 1, long form 1, short form 2, long form 2, short form 3, long form 3, form 4, form 5, and form 6 as far as the techniques go... you can go to http://www.fitchburgkarate.com - www.fitchburgkarate.com and look at the original 32 system and find them on that site.
the actual definition of kenpo karate is "law of the fist and open hand"
karate is two words. kara and te kara means open and te means hand
kenpo is defined as law of the fist. which is why when you combine the two together you get kenpo karate and the solute is on fist put together with an open vertical chop.
I have a few questions for anyone that does villari kenpo. question one... what are the power principles behind the movements and why are the movments done as tehy are. All kicks done in the air with both feet off the ground have not nearly as much power as a kick thrusted into someone while on the ground. ANd does the Villari system have any moves that are used for "what if" meaning what if when you do a move and they dont act as you were expecting or what if they counter it. Do you have anything to counter back with... and i mean using something you have planned. SOmething u just choose to put on the techniques to make them work is not really gonna work.
Once again all this is just questions and facts. That is all i can go by

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 08 February 2005 at 5:52pm

Hi Parker Boy,
I don't believe I've seen anyone say Villari Kempo is Parker Kenpo. It is a completetly different system and he was under Cerio for a time and I do believe he did achieve black belt under that system (I could be wrong). From what I understand he was kicked out by Cerio because of a disagreement.

quote:

kenpo is defined as law of the fist. which is why when you combine the two together you get kenpo karate and the solute is on fist put together with an open vertical chop.

Okay, that is a chinese solute of Chuan Fa, which also means fist law, and many other systems of Kung Fu. Also, Kenpo can mean fighting method. The translation from Japanese to English is not always accurate.
KEM - Fist or Fighting
PO - Law or Method
Karate usually means Empty Hand, not Open. But I guess you could look at it that way.

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: The Kai
Date Posted: 09 February 2005 at 9:03am

Some say Villari was a Probationary Black Belt when he left, others say he was a 2nd dan. even though Cerio and Villari left on bad terms Mr Cerio always said that Villari was a good fighter (FWIW)
All kicks done in the air with both feet off the ground have not nearly as much power as a kick thrusted from the ground
Actually I can't speak of the Villari system or it's power principles. However a jumping kick can pack alot of power depending on if you jump for distance or height, speed you are moving forward, leg speed and your weight, and if what point in the trajectory you hit at
Todd

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Osu!

Posted By: ROGUE
Date Posted: 09 February 2005 at 7:29pm

Hi Zoran
Did some searching on the net and came up with some info on Villari kempo.
This is the abridged version.
Villari was taught by Nick Cerio who was taught by George Pesare who studied under Sonny Gascon to John Leoning to Adriano D. Emperado the founder of Kajukenbo.
Sonny Gascon and John Leoning modify Emperado's Kajukenbo and create 1-5 kata and the combinations
Sonny Gascon leaves behind the name Kajukenbo due to "politics" and calls his system Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. His system is further modified by him and his brother- in- law Walter Godin
The system included 1-5 kata, Statue of the Crane, combinations 1-13,22 and 26
The forms and fighting techniques were all based on Kajukenbo Material. The katas were combinations of the shorter Kajukenbo forms and the combinations were based on the Kajukenbo punch defenses.
George Pesare Trains with Sonny Gascon and he creates #6 kata also brings Kempo to the East Coast.
Nick Cerio trains with George Pesare and then opens his own school teaching 1-5 kata, 6 kata from George Pesare, Statye of the Crane, and combinations 1-13,22 and 26.
It's noted that at this time Escrima is dropped from the system.
Nick Cerio meets Prof. Chow and is promoted to Shodan in Chinese Kempo. Cerio adds 1,3,4 and 5 pinan, which came from Mas Oyama's Kyokushin Kai Karate system, 2 Pinan which Cerio created and Hon Suki which he learned from Bill Chun who was a Senior student of Prof. Chow. Cerio also added the rest of the 26 combinations from techniques he learned from Prof. Chow.
Fred Villari Trains with Nick Cerio and adds combinations 27-108, and the forms Two Man Set ( Ed Parker ), Swift Tigers ( Nick Cerio's Circle of the Panther ),Sho Tun Kwok, Nengli North, Nengli South, Invincible Wall, Five Dragons Face the Four Winds, Branches of the Fallen Pine, Lost Leopard, Tai Sing Mon, 1000 Buddas, and Snake and Wounded Tigers.
My understanding is that most of this is after 2nd Dan Otherwise it closely resembles Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu up to 1st Dan
Good thing i did the short version ! Info is from a Prof. Joe Shuras
Also checked into the school! $25 first month plus a gi. fifty a month after that. Interesting thing is that they have blended Inayan Escrima system to the Shaolin Kempo that they teach. Instructor is attentive and teaches all classes. Explain finer points and is very good natured ( answered all my stupid questions very openly )
I'll check him out for a month and get back to you. I got your hidden message Zoran about getting off my Butt and trying it out. Thanks!
Talk to you later!
Rogue

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 10 February 2005 at 1:36pm

Great work Rogue!! That's a great starting point and it filled a few gaps in my knowledge of it as well. Good luck with trying the school out. Hope to hear your objective opion on the system soon.

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: Parker Boy
Date Posted: 10 February 2005 at 3:48pm

I have just gone to nick cerios' website and it says that he is a black belt in american kenpo. I checked an neckf website and he was not listed as a black belt meaning that he has a false ranking. And no it wasnt taken off the site because of an arguemtent.
I also saw that Fred Villari was taught american kenpo while under cerio and that fred villari has a black belt in american kenpo. this is also a false ranking.
i have a studio in my town that says they are teaching american kenpo and that they are a villari studio. I checked on another source that told me they were a villari studio. They were not truly teaching american kenpo seeing as it was not ed parkers material.
I took a day and went inside and watched them perfom their material and seeing as i am a certified black belt in ed parkers american kenpo and a certified teacher i could quickly see that it was nothing like american kenpo. And it was not another form of american kenpo because the only american kenpo created that is a certified type of martial arts is ed parkers american kenpo
i also noticed that the teachers were being called sensei and other asian words. the black belts had asian rankings and the material was in sets,katas,and pinions i know this is not american kenpo seeing as it is not even americanized.
All of ed parkers terms were in clear english and no asian terms were used other than the words kenpo and karate.
I am not saying that villari does not teach real martial arts because i know that he teaches someting other than american kenpo but i am saying that there is no possible way for a villari studio to teach american kenpo and have black belts as a certified rank.
a non black belt cannot premote a student to black belt
it does not make any sense and seeing as cerio never earned a black belt then Fred villari never earned a certified black belt making all the american kenpo students of villari null invoid
once again all i can go on are facts and if u have any questions on my ranking or my sources i will gladly show you them

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 11 February 2005 at 4:42pm

I will not argue with you that villari system is not american kenpo. I agree with you there and those that are saying otherwise are misrepresenting themselves.

As to Cerio, I heard a lot of good things about him. As to him training under the parker system, that probably happened as you say. But, per his bio, Nick Cerio recieved his black belt in an off shoot of Kajukenbo (a kenpo system) in 1966. Reading his bio, I do see him giving some credit to Parker but I did not see rank mentioned. It does mention rank recieved from Chow.

So in essence I do agree that Villari, and Cerio, is not EPAK. But I find your statement that Cerio was not legit Kenpo blackbelt unfounded.

You should also know that Parker has given out like rank through the IKKA from time to time. Some of those may not be listed as American Kenpo black belts. I know this because John McSweeney recieved his 7th Degree from Ed Parker yet he was not recognized as a 7th by the AKSC. One AKSC member did look up the certificate number and it was verified, but it still does not make him an EPAK 7th.

Parker has been known to recognize rank for other Kenpo stylists outside his own system. Not saying that this is the case with Cerio, but just telling you that there may be a possibility.

Anyways, cerio's bio can be found http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/prof_cerio/Professor_Cerio_Bi ography.htm - HERE

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: ROGUE
Date Posted: 11 February 2005 at 7:17pm

If you go to Nick Cerio's website and read his bio it says Master Parker tested hin for his Sandan 3rd dan in 1969 and it was sanctioned by the IKKA and the AKA
Master Parker also gave him in 1983 a Kudan 9th dan ranking in " Kenpo " Karate not American Kenpo Karate as some people believe. It was to recognize his work in the martial arts and in Kenpo Karate.
As for Nick Cerio and Fred Villari's black belts if you go to the website of the NECKF that was refered to before and read the first 3 paragraphs in the About Us page it tells a person that George Pesare brought Kenpo to the east coast and Cerio received his black belt from him and Villari from Cerio. It then goes on to say that black belts from this lineage converted to American Kenpo Karate which is a different system.

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 12 February 2005 at 2:19am

Master Parker also gave him in 1983 a Kudan 9th dan ranking in " Kenpo " Karate not American Kenpo Karate as some people believe. It was to recognize his work in the martial arts and in Kenpo Karate.

I missed that one when I read it the first time. Anyways, it is possible as this was not uncommon in the Chow lineage family. If I recall, it was Emperado, who was Parker's senior, that awarded Parker his 5th and another rank that I don't recall.

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: KGS BBS
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 9:02am

Hello to all, please allow me to clear this up once and for all. Fred Villari never claimed to teach EPAK and neither did Nick Cerio. The term 'American Kenpo' is a generic name that some use to describe the Hawaiian/Shaolin derived Kenpo/Kempo systems. Cerio nor Villari studied with any Parker purple belt. They actually studied with Parker himself back in the mid to late 60's when Cerio was the Northeast Regional Director of IKKA. Cerio, Villari and Professor Larry Garron (former running back on the then 'Boston' Patriots (now 'New England') 1960-1970, who currently resides in Massachusetts, used to attend workouts put on by Mr. Parker.
Parker recognized and promoted Cerio to, I believe 2nd dan (I'd have to check that) but definitely 3rd and later 9th in 'Kenpo Karate' the same way Sijo Adriano D. Emperado recognized and promoted Ed Parker to 8th in Kenpo. Yes, this was very common in the Hawain derived kenpo/kempo systems. Villari and Cerio did use 'some' of Parker's insights and material in their respective systems. Parker also played an important role in assisting Cerio in the formation of Nick Cerio's Kenpo (est. 1974).
Villari made up to 2nd degree black belt under Professor Cerio, however, he did not complete his one year probationary period so he is listed as a shodan in the Cerio records. Again, 'American Kenpo' was used by Cerio to describe any one he promoted or recognized outside of his personal system, Nick Cerio's Kenpo or NCK. Gm. S. George Pesare who promoted Cerio to shodan had also used the term 'American Kenpo' starting back in the 70's. Fred Villari at one time used the name 'American Shaolin Kempo' to describe his system yet none of these men ever claimed to teach Parker's Kenpo. They did not mislead anyone. There is no copyright on 'American Kenpo' and the name has been used for four decades by various systems. I started in the arts in 1973 and in 1981 my personal school logo uses the name 'American KeMpo'.
I have studied and made rank under Fred Villari and later up to 6th personally under Nick Cerio. I also made a 7th at George Pesare's Kaito Gakko and also a 7th under Gm. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon, Mr. Pesare's instructor and founder of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. I was groomed for my first degree black belt (01-07-77) by Hanshi Craig Seavey, current head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo and taught a seminar in Framingham, Ma. in Police Defensive Tactics and Kenpo Karate to the Framingham Police Dept. along with Craig Seavey and Larry Garron. My point being, my information has come directly from the individuals I mentioned above. They are my direct sources, plus I am privy to all certificates/diplomas of Professor Nick Cerio, so this is not heresay, myth or misinformation of any way, shape or form and I stand by everything I have written. Thank you. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

Posted By: Zoran
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 2:05pm

Very informative. Thank you very much!

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Zoran "Z-Rex" Sevic
http://www.martial-links.com - Martial-Links - Web design and hosting
http://www.martialartsindustry.net - Martial Arts Industry Network

Posted By: ROGUE
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 6:41pm

Prof. Shuras
Thank you for the insights.
It's strange that you answered this post after so long because I was just considering contacting you to see if you could answer some questions I have concerning KGS and Shaolin Kempo.
I Joined a Shaolin Kempo school ( Villari breakaway ) about 9 months ago after much research into the school and the art. What I am finding is that Shaolin Kempo is interpreted many different ways ( not that their is anything wrong with that ). But what I find myself wanting to know is how it was originally done so I can see where the variations are and decide if they are functional or if the original method makes more sense to me personally. How do I find something like this out? I live in Wisconsin and cannot locate a KGS school in the area to go and watch a class or talk to them. My understanding is that SK is KGS up to BB. I see that you have studied both and have a reputation for being honest and reliable. I would like to know what the differences are and how difficult it was to convert to KGS after SK
Sincerely
Dale Karinen

Posted By: timh
Date Posted: 26 October 2005 at 5:21am

I am always surprised at how determined some people are to legitimize 'their' system over another. Having a black belt means nothing more than someone having dedicated time to learning a system and demonstrating competency within that style. So if someone tells me they are a black belt in EPAK or Villari Kempo, it means no more than them having experience in the particular system. I will judge them based on their personal skill level.
I will not enter into a debate over the legitamacy of a system or the credentials of the founder(s). Ultimately the decision of a student to join a particular school depends on the student's motivation and goals and their opinion of the instructor, and often times the school location.

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Be Aware and Stay Safe!

Posted By: MAC1
Date Posted: 26 October 2005 at 10:58am

i agree with timh. if what an individual does that is practicle and the experience that they can share is also then they are at least good in what they are presenting
mac1

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jbMAC

Posted By: KGS BBS
Date Posted: 28 October 2005 at 11:35am

I feel all the styles and/or systems in this Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo are more alike than different. Essentially what distinguishes the system or style at all from another is where the 'emphasis' lies. Take any of the Hawaiian kenpo/kempo branches and scrape beneath the surface and one will discover the cores are all the same. I, personally, look for an art that also incorporates grappling as I feel it's an integral part of reality fighting.
There is talk of commericalized schools and commercialized arts. Any school that operates to pay bills and teaches to the public falls into the category of being commercialized. However, one does not have to teach a 'commericalized art' per se. In other words, the techniques should not be compromised to what 'looks good' or 'sells' in place of function or reality. Don't 'market' the techniques of the system. Yes, the method of training has to be compromised to a degree also due to liability which was something that was unheard of in the old days. Compromise for pure financial gain is also a major problem these days as we all know. I am too a firm believer in the saying that it's the student who makes the art and not the art that makes the student. Same with the instructor.
There is only so much that is actually used in reality as I'm sure some on this board have experienced first hand but others in the arts I have either met or read their posts on various forums speak about techniques and so forth as if they don't have a clue what it's really like to rock and roll with someone. Ever wonder why a lot of the 'traditional' techniques never show up on the UFC fights? How about the 'caught on tape' real life fights? I feel students who have little or no real world experience with their art should pay close attention to the above and modify their training methods accordingly. I feel that my nearly three decades as an active police officer have helped me a great deal in what I teach and how I teach it.
Lastly, yes, Dale, I've been away from the forums for a while. I kind of got sick of the lack of professionalism and ethics displayed by some. Some have no respect at all for other peoples' systems and or/opinions and egos are way out of control with a few. I decided to test the waters again here and there and see how it works out. Dale, here is my e-mail address, mailto:jshuras@hotmail.com - jshuras@hotmail.com . We can exchange phone numbers and I'll call you and be more than happy to be of whatever help I can. Thanks for the kind words. Respectfully, "Joe"

Posted By: MAnderson
Date Posted: 01 November 2005 at 10:48am

Mr. Shuras

Thanks for getting on this board. Your knowledge is a great asset.
BallistikMike from the martialtalk boards. We have traded posts before.

Gald to have you
Mike

Posted By: KGS BBS
Date Posted: 03 November 2005 at 8:57am

Thank you very much, Mike, for the kind words. This seems like nice friendly forum where we can all learn from each other. "Joe"

Posted By: monkey san
Date Posted: 12 November 2005 at 12:01am

Good to see you posting Prof. I saw where KGS BBS is releasing a book on GM Gascon's methods. Any idea if this is for association members only or is it a public release? If possible, I know many of us would be eager to hear a little something about it

Posted By: KGS BBS
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 9:51am

Thank you, monkey san, good to hear from you again! I believe the book will be open to the public just like Sijo Emperado did with the Kajukenbo curriculum. "Joe"

Posted By: monkey san
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 8:55pm

Sounds good. Always good to see the arts documented. Thank You.

Posted By: Prof. Joe Shuras
Date Posted: 19 October 2006 at 9:09am

Sorry, I went to anwser this not seeing that I responded to it some time ago., lol. Prof. Joe